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Ski-the-Teeners Standards

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Re: Ski-the-Teeners Ethics

Postby SchralpTheGnar » Thu May 21, 2009 12:15 pm

Just to clarify on some of the terminology
Davenport(verb) - to air off a summit block onto the snow below. As in "Check me out, I'm going to be the first to Davenport off of Sunlight"
Schralp the gnar (verb and noun)- to downclimb through talus\scree\cliffs with your skis on, as in "Check out this pic of SchralpTheGnar schralping the gnar on Uncompahgre"

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Re: Ski-the-Teeners Ethics

Postby doumall » Thu May 21, 2009 12:32 pm

I was under the impression "Davenporting" was a term coined by Lou Dawson after Chris's Ellingwood descent, referring to how Chris walked across rocks between the summit and the main ski route. I could be wrong, but this was my understanding.

One thing to keep in mind when pondering such things is Chris's project was neither an Apple nor an Orange, but rather a Jackfruit! He skied them all in a year and I believe due to Colorado's unpredictable snowpack a few hall passes should be allowed on such an endeavor. Imagine getting toward the end of the list within a calendar year and a more pedestrian route is not fully in. Should you scrap the entire project? I don't think so, go ski off the summit and then what you can of it, 'Davenport' if you feel the need and get a hall pass, so long as it isn’t on one of the more involved peaks.

Re: Ski-the-Teeners Ethics

Postby lodgling » Thu May 21, 2009 9:57 pm

Wetterhorn: It is my assumption that the peak holds snow on the summit platform reliably year to year. The snowfield is long enough and steep enough to get half a dozen fun turns in right off the summit.


Doumall:

Having now seen your finisher report, I agree with this sentiment, and will do the same when I get up there.

http://www.14ers.com/php14ers/triprepor ... m=tripmain

Those turns must have some of the more gratifying on the project. Congrats on finishing!!




"Standards" seems the better term for what gets you on Lou's list (or the official list), and at this point the 5 to follow him have certainly met or exceeded those before. "Ethics" seems a bit more personal, and would extend the list to those (only Marmot?) that completed the project with different "standards." I see nothing "unethical" about what Marmot did. In fact, it seems probably one of the cooler 14er projects out there.



So question to any 14er ski finishers still paying attention:

Skiing the 14ers is pretty strange activity since there is vastly better bc skiing available in CO at nearly any given moment. What will get you back on a 14er for a ski descent? A friend that skis it for the first time? A better/more classic line?

But most importantly, as far as personal ethics, are there are descents that you will do again, not for the above reasons, but because you want to get a cleaner descent (i.e get past a crux w/o belaying, clean from the top without billygoating, etc.) to feel like you have met or exceeded the 14er ski project YOU set out to finish?

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Re: Ski-the-Teeners Ethics

Postby tmahon » Fri May 22, 2009 8:52 am

I've gone back to peaks to ski again for loads of reasons-- sometimes so it was cleaner off the top, sometimes to do a different line and sometimes because it's just fun. I like doing it, for personal reasons that maybe only hold significance to me. I have my list and others may have different ones, I have my standards that some may feel they can improve on and others may feel are too strict and I have my own ideas on style. They're mine and I don't force them on other people. They do happen to fall in line with what have become the popular standards today as for "what counts."

I think it's important to take the "long view" on this stuff, in other words, to quit nit picking over the absolute minutiae of individual peaks, and the particulars of their summits and ski lines. When you look at a snowy mountain in a photo, find the ski line that goes off the top and go up there and ski it. For someone from the Alps or even the Tetons, who take this stuff as seriously as anyone, to see the squabbling that goes on about everything from where the benchmark is or who skied from the highest summit block, to how long you skied and at what elevation you started from and how you accessed the mountain, if you walked on rocks or skied on rocks or if a rope was used in anyway-- is embarrassing to me. If anyone went for a beer in La Grave and talked about this stuff they'd be laughed at.

Find the line, ski it when it is in and call it good. For me, if it doesn't feel right when it's done then I should probably figure out why that is and come back to get it so it does.

If you want to read some stuff more on the "long view", try these links which help me to get the focus off the super-petty stuff and also might clear up some people's take on the use of ropes. Or maybe not:

An interview with extremely accomplished Stephen Koch - http://stephenkoch.com/2009/03/snowboar ... cent-talk/
A recount on the Hossack Macgowan - http://www.tetonat.com/2008/12/first-sk ... revisited/
Dawson's take on style -
http://www.wildsnow.com/articles/lous_b ... _V11_3.htm
The second descent of the HM - http://www.tetonat.com/2009/02/second-d ... and-teton/
Last edited by tmahon on Fri May 22, 2009 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Ski-the-Teeners Ethics

Postby SchralpTheGnar » Fri May 22, 2009 9:02 am

Regarding the comment about vastly better bc skiing available at any given moment than on a 14er, this is absolutely true and an often painful truth of trying to ski 14ers. Skiing the fourteerers is much more of a mountaineering challenge than a skiing challenge, and it's a good list to go after. In general if someone has a hiking\backpacking\climbing background and skis as well in CO, it's only a matter of time before they'll ski a 14er.

I got into skiing the 14ers when I moved to CO 11 years ago because I love climbing the highest mountains I couldn't stand hiking down loose slopes or crowds, skiing the fourteeners solved both these problems. Even today, while skiing the fourteeners is more popular than ever, on my last two descents (Uncompahgre and Antero) we didn't see another single person the entire day on either peak.

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Re: Ski-the-Teeners Ethics

Postby RoanMtnMan » Fri May 22, 2009 11:34 am

Wow this was more fruitful than I thought. Some great points made. The real gem being, holding to, and when possible bettering, the standards of those that came before is a great rule of thumb. It certainly works for other climbing disciplines.

I also agree that the details can be a little much, but I think they are important in this forum. Not just for standards, but for the education of those just starting their peak skiing careers or projects.

Thanks for the articles Ted. I had read the others but not the Koch interview. Good stuff.
Always follow the 7 P's. Proper Planning & Preparation, Prevents Piss-Poor Performance.

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Re: Ski-the-Teeners Ethics

Postby BIO_KNEE » Fri May 22, 2009 12:05 pm

What about taking the project on with a snowboard? There are obvious lines where we have no choice to take the board off and walk/down climb. So where a skier could walk with the skis on, we obviously can’t. Also on spots like the secret chute on Capitol, we again have no choice but to take the board off and rapp. At least it looks to be so, I have yet to climb it but from the TR's it looks to be so. I’m just curious, its allot harder to find people with regular boards (not split) taking on this challenge and can see where there could be controversy in a true decent.
"It is whom the meal is shared with, not what is eaten that makes it special." - Epicurus

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Re: Ski-the-Teeners Ethics

Postby SchralpTheGnar » Fri May 22, 2009 12:10 pm

In conclusion,
RoanMtnMan wrote:Why hike down when you can ski

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Re: Ski-the-Teeners Ethics

Postby Jcwhite » Fri May 22, 2009 12:11 pm

BIO_KNEE wrote:What about taking the project on with a snowboard? There are obvious lines where we have no choice to take the board off and walk/down climb. So where a skier could walk with the skis on, we obviously can’t. Also on spots like the secret chute on Capitol, we again have no choice but to take the board off and rapp. At least it looks to be so, I have yet to climb it but from the TR's it looks to be so. I’m just curious, its allot harder to find people with regular boards (not split) taking on this challenge and can see where there could be controversy in a true decent.



Nahhh..take a look at Easyrider's TR's. He's almost done. I can't remember really seeing him take it off for any reason.
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming WOW! WHAT A RIDE."- Hunter S Thompson

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Re: Ski-the-Teeners Ethics

Postby RoanMtnMan » Fri May 22, 2009 12:15 pm

Easy Rider skis with that board split better than most skiers do on their skis.
Always follow the 7 P's. Proper Planning & Preparation, Prevents Piss-Poor Performance.

"An adventure is misery and discomfort, relived in the safety of reminiscence.” --Marco Polo

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Re: Ski-the-Teeners Standards

Postby BIO_KNEE » Fri May 22, 2009 12:43 pm

Like I said I'm just curious. I’ve only boarded Dead Dog as far as 14ers so there is still plenty I have to learn hear. Until I can get more strength back in my leg I’ve been sticking to shorter climbs. :(


Gimp climbing rocks!
:mrgreen:
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Re: Ski-the-Teeners Standards

Postby doumall » Fri May 22, 2009 12:58 pm

Standards for snowboarding the 14ers have not been established, as no one has finished yet. Easy Rider is trying to hold to the skiing standards. See him in action and you will realize it is possible.

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