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Anti-Festivus Airing of Non-Grievances

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Re: Anti-Festivus Airing of Non-Grievances

Postby DArcyS » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:25 am

The issue isn't the impact on the ecosystem. That's rather minimal. Nor is the issue solitidue in a wilderness area. Nobody expects that on a 14er anymore either.

Rather, the issue is the public perception of the 14ers.com community respecting wilderness laws and regulations. To protect this community's reputation, the best practice would be to hold gatherings and climb peaks in non-wilderness areas if the group is expected to be large.

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Re: Anti-Festivus Airing of Non-Grievances

Postby d_baker » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:13 am

kansas wrote:Just like EVERY gathering this site has ever had (including a winter HC trip you were part of).

I'm not taking sides, but that "gathering" had far less impact due to snow.

inthemtns wrote:The issue isn't the impact on the ecosystem. That's rather minimal. Nor is the issue solitidue in a wilderness area. Nobody expects that on a 14er anymore either.

Rather, the issue is the public perception of the 14ers.com community respecting wilderness laws and regulations. To protect this community's reputation, the best practice would be to hold gatherings and climb peaks in non-wilderness areas if the group is expected to be large.

Agreed.

I think the other thread turns people off because now the Denver Happy Hour has stumbled its way onto summits in large groups. But, the more popular 14ers in summer will have crowds no matter if it's a wilderness area or not -- it's just how it is now.

Personally, I'm not a fan of keg parties on the peaks or large parties. But I'm not against people wanting to have a good time with their friends if done responsibly and no one gets hurt.

I will side with Kimo on one part of his comment. You can randomly decide what part that is.....

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Re: Anti-Festivus Airing of Non-Grievances

Postby CarpeDM » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:24 am

Anna,
I’m thankful for your contributions to this site, for your conscientious attitude toward and concern for the mountains.

I’m thankful that I am not invited to the “cool kids” parties and have not yet run into a Denver Happy Hour summit bash.

I’m thankful for having been a part of 14ers.com before it was overwhelmed by unaccomplished jackasses who try to make fun you, narcissist spillovers from Facebook, and frat boys/sorority girls who “like” their own worthless trip reports.

I think there are a few photos of Anna here with some truly cool kids on a pretty "kick ass climb."
"Skepticism is the first step towards truth." - Denis Diderot
"It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition." - Bertrand Russell
"Tell people there's an invisible man in the sky who created the universe, and the vast majority will believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." - George Carlin
"Some say they're goin' to a place called Glory And I ain't saying it ain't a fact. But I've heard that I'm on the road to Purgatory And I don't like the sound of that.
I believe in love and I live my life accordingly. But I choose to let the mystery be" - Iris Dement

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Re: Anti-Festivus Airing of Non-Grievances

Postby CarpeDM » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:43 am

In addition, I am thankful for:
- Each new trip report from Lordhelmut, papillon, and kimo
- The wit and humor of monster5
- Forum contributions from the intelligent and well-spoken crossfitter
- Bergsteigen’s “Big Year”
- The good-natured couple Bob & Kate
- The contrarianism of Brian Thomas
- The bluntness of the irascible nkan02
- The friendship of Rainier_Wolfcastle and emceesmith
- The wisdom of my beautiful bride who reminded me to keep it positive.
"Skepticism is the first step towards truth." - Denis Diderot
"It is not what the man of science believes that distinguishes him, but how and why he believes it. His beliefs are tentative, not dogmatic; they are based on evidence, not on authority or intuition." - Bertrand Russell
"Tell people there's an invisible man in the sky who created the universe, and the vast majority will believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." - George Carlin
"Some say they're goin' to a place called Glory And I ain't saying it ain't a fact. But I've heard that I'm on the road to Purgatory And I don't like the sound of that.
I believe in love and I live my life accordingly. But I choose to let the mystery be" - Iris Dement

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Re: Anti-Festivus Airing of Non-Grievances

Postby Dave B » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:51 am

"There is no cheating in climbing, only lying." - Semi-Rad

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Re: Anti-Festivus Airing of Non-Grievances

Postby Tortoise1 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:19 am

kimo wrote:The personal attacks, negativity, and hypocrisy is thick around here -


Anyone who thinks this is a rough forum hasn't been on a rough forum. This site is still 99+ percent clean, polite, helpful, intelligent, professional, etc. It could go downhill 10 fold and still be one of the best things that ever happened to the internet.

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Re: Anti-Festivus Airing of Non-Grievances

Postby Sixpoint » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:35 am

I am thankful for the great information that I have gleaned from this site, as a reference and a learning tool it is unparalleled (thank you Bill).

I appreciate many in the community here that take time to post TR's and information. Anna is one of the best, I always looked forward to her TR's to see what adventure she was up to the weekend before.

Anna, your comments on the other forum questioning the number of people on the summit of Wetterhorn were right on. From all appearances they were pushing the limits and I am thankful that you care. Whether they actually followed the area wilderness rules and wilderness good practice is beside the point, the appearances from FB and the postings here deserved an explanation.

I am also thankful that I will no longer be visiting the forum on this site. Negativity disguised as "sarcasm" is just an excuse to offend and still make the poster feel that they are justified. From Webster; "SARCASM - a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain"

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Re: Anti-Festivus Airing of Non-Grievances

Postby screeman57 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:37 am

Tortoise1 wrote:Anyone who thinks this is a rough forum hasn't been on a rough forum. This site is still 99+ percent clean, polite, helpful, intelligent, professional, etc. It could go downhill 10 fold and still be one of the best things that ever happened to the internet.


+1! Just read the comments on news websites (CNN, MCNBC, Faux) for some serious vitriol.
"Never measure the height of a mountain until you have reached the top. Then you will see how low it was." -Dag Hammarskjold

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Re: Anti-Festivus Airing of Non-Grievances

Postby 12ersRule » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:40 am

I don't care for the mob mentality of the new cool kids or the old cool kids and I do love the contrarianism of Brian Thomas.

I am thankful for:

-Great friends I've met on this site and potential new friends that I meet in the hills.
-Introducing new people to the fabulous landscape that is Colorado.
-Getting out and exploring this wonderful state.

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Re: Anti-Festivus Airing of Non-Grievances

Postby kimo » Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:56 am

kansas wrote:
kimo wrote: this community publically lambasted Camp Gladiator, but then celebrates a costume party just weeks later in violation of the same wilderness regulations that Camp Gladiator was demonized for.


Kimo, you contribute some of the best stuff this site has to offer and the one time I've been around you in person I throughly enjoyed your company. But the above statement is total BS and you know it. Camp Gladiator was lambasted for shitting all over, leading un permitted guided climbs, setting up a 50 person camp in a wilderness area and disrespecting the mountains in general. The "costume party" had too many people on the summit, that's it, Just like EVERY gathering this site has ever had (including a winter HC trip you were part of). I'm not saying its right, but it's a far cry from the picture you are painting.

Thanks for moving the discussion.



Darrin...anyone who's been at this for any length of time knows how small these mountains really are. I have no doubt that we'll meet again. Hope I have a coldie for you then. With that, this isn't about any of the individuals on the trip. I have climbed and camped with Kevin and Clay, and I know firsthand that they are two of the nicest and most honest men around. The issue is "mob mentality", and, as D'arcy mentioned, the perception that mentality creates. There are differences and similarities between the CG incident and the finisher party. Regardless, what's done is done, and I would prefer to agree to disagree on the matter. There are plenty of more productive matters for us to put this energy into.

I do need to reply to your comment about the 2011 Holy Cross winter "gathering" that I participated in. The group that planned this trip through PMs and e-mails did not exceed the 15-person group size limit (our distribution list was 7 or 8 people). It was known that others would be camped at the top of the pass (5 or 6 more max). Another group (their appearance was a surprise to me) followed and camped lower on the mountain. We didn't see that group on the mountain until after we had descended a few hundred feet from the summit. I would be very surprised if our summit group exceeded 15 people, but I'm not about to go back and look at my pictures just to split hairs. What's important is this: two years ago I was unaware of the group size limitations and did not consider them. I was for the most part a solo hiker or had hiked with other small groups, none of which exceeded 6 or 7 people.

So here is the moral of the story, and one I ask those new to the hobby/sport/life style to consider: keep wilderness regulations in mind when going out in groups. A positive change that I have made in the past two years (thanks to Mike, aka Chicago Transplant) is to consider the group size on any group climb I an involved with. It was our top consideration for last year's centennial finishers on RGP, and it was a top consideration for Furthermore's 13er finisher last month. In fact, the first thing Anna and I did when asked if we wanted to join that group was check the maps to verify the South San Juan wilderness boundary. We would have bowed out if necessary.

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Re: Anti-Festivus Airing of Non-Grievances

Postby Tory Wells » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:22 am

I enjoy a quiet summit without summit parties. I believe the parties are best left to the Happy Hours and bar celebrations after the hike.

I do believe the recent party-goers did a good job of adhering to LNT and the Wilderness rules, but the perception from the outside world, particularly after the CG episode, doesn't make us look good.

I'm thankful to live in the best mountain state (and best overall) in the US. Let's keep it that way.

To quote Anatoli Boukreev:
“Mountains are not stadiums where I satisfy my ambition to achieve, they are the cathedrals where I practice my religion.”
Last edited by Tory Wells on Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Tongue-tied and twisted, just an earthbound misfit, am I." -David Gilmour, Pink Floyd

"We knocked the bastard off." Hillary, 1953
"It is not the mountain we conquer but ourselves." Hillary, 2003
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Re: Anti-Festivus Airing of Non-Grievances

Postby bergsteigen » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:22 am

I am grateful that I only had to tell 5-10 gurlz that they couldn't go on the hike this year, due to Wilderness regulations, and that other friends (who had already done the Needle), bowed out on their own.

I am sad that we had a bunch of last minute cancellations and maybe's go to no, since we had room for 7-8 more gurlz on the trip, and I would have loved to share my favorite peak with more gurlz.

I'm also glad everyone we met on the route and summit was excited to see us and helped us with the video.

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