Private Guide on Rainier?

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GregMiller
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Re: Private Guide on Rainier?

Post by GregMiller »

As I learned, pre-rigging prusiks is not only for self rescue, but also to make responding to a crevasse fall that much faster/safer.

But, I would assume it depends on how many you have on a rope. We had 3, so if #1 falls in, #2 most likely holds the fall while #3 rigs an anchor, etc, so each person needs to be reading and willing to respond quickly.
On a rope of 8+ (what we commonly saw for guided groups this last weekend) if #1 falls in, #2-4 hold the fall, and #5-8 lean backwards to pop #1 out (or some such), so I can understand the guides wanting to simplify things for their clients.

That being said, I much preferred to have the crevasse rescue and glacier travel knowledge learned and practiced ahead of time, so that I had a lot more mental 'security' on the mountain - knowing that my teammates and myself could perform the rescue if any one of us fell in (and knew how to travel safely to reduce that danger) was very reassuring.

Also, I don't like the idea of being tied by rope to someone I only met the day before :wft:

EDIT - question for those that have gone guided - what happens when 1 or 2 people decide they need to turn around halfway up? Does a guide split off with those two on a separate rope?
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WarDamnPanic
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Re: Private Guide on Rainier?

Post by WarDamnPanic »

We had more guides than rope teams, so if someone decided to turn around, they will pull one of the extra guides off a rope team. Then all other members can continue to ascend.

GregMiller wrote:As I learned, pre-rigging prusiks is not only for self rescue, but also to make responding to a crevasse fall that much faster/safer.

But, I would assume it depends on how many you have on a rope. We had 3, so if #1 falls in, #2 most likely holds the fall while #3 rigs an anchor, etc, so each person needs to be reading and willing to respond quickly.
On a rope of 8+ (what we commonly saw for guided groups this last weekend) if #1 falls in, #2-4 hold the fall, and #5-8 lean backwards to pop #1 out (or some such), so I can understand the guides wanting to simplify things for their clients.

That being said, I much preferred to have the crevasse rescue and glacier travel knowledge learned and practiced ahead of time, so that I had a lot more mental 'security' on the mountain - knowing that my teammates and myself could perform the rescue if any one of us fell in (and knew how to travel safely to reduce that danger) was very reassuring.

Also, I don't like the idea of being tied by rope to someone I only met the day before :wft:

EDIT - question for those that have gone guided - what happens when 1 or 2 people decide they need to turn around halfway up? Does a guide split off with those two on a separate rope?
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Re: Private Guide on Rainier?

Post by Pops921 »

I don't think guided teams would ever travel with more the 5 people on a rope. Most likely you saw several 3 or 4 man rope teams traveling together. Too many people on a rope creates issues with people strung across multiple hazards and just the issue of #8 seeing what #1 is doing. RMI travels with one lead guide and two assistant guides leading 9 clients on 3 rope teams. There are frequently two of 3 guide, 9 client groups on the mountain at one time - so 18 total climbers with 6 guides. As people drop out, they will move people back and forth between rope teams and an assistant guide leading the people turning back down. I believe their maximum for a rope team is 5. I am not sure, but I think IMG and Alpine Ascents travel have even more guides per client. Each different guide group teaches different techniques for self rescue etc..
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Re: Private Guide on Rainier?

Post by Monster5 »

Prusiks on rope serve multiple functions. While many of these scenarios are worst case, it's better to be prepared for them rather than bank on a nearby rope team hauling you out.

-As Greg points out, it makes responding to a crevasse fall faster, safer, and more efficient. While (basic scenario) #2 is arresting and holding the weight, #3 is moving himself closer to #2 to build an anchor. You don't want any slack in the rope as #3 moves to #2 as that creates the potential for a large dynamic fall, so #3 brings him/herself in by taking in slack on the prusik. Meanwhile, #1 is freezing inside a crevasse and #2 is freezing, uncomfortable, and straining on arrest, so you don't want to be fumbling around throwing on prusiks. They should be pre-rigged.

-In the event you're #1 inside the crevasse (and it is a full blown crevasse fall), you'll probably be pretty uncomfortable - big pack trying to flip you upside down until you lower it on a tether, making sweet love to an icy wall, gloves and ax dangling and tangling, dripping wet, cold, difficult to breath with the tension on the harness, and so forth. Do you really want to add the burden of throwing on prusiks and risk dropping them when you could've easily pre-rigged earlier?

-An important aspect that most guided parties miss out on entirely because the guide is watching for them: managing slack between partners. First, let me preface this by saying that prusiks alone are not meant to take moderate-large falls and should never be relied on to do so - set up an anchored belay or do a running belay if the fall risk increases. Similarly, never travel with the prusiks choked up on slack - let the rope take the force of any significant fall.
The prusik allows rope mates to remove slack when entering/leaving safe zones (ropemates converging or separating), transferring pickets/pro, switchbacking or making sharp turns up a slope, or ropemates grouping together for whatever other reason. During these scenarios, you don't want unreasonable slack in the rope during any part of the process (unless the safe zone is large enough for you all to enter prior to converging) as it creates the potential for a big dynamic fall on a skinny 8 mm ish line. That is bad and will make it hard for your partners to arrest while getting yanked from their feet. The prusik/slack management keeps the fall force closer to static levels, which it can handle. Additionally, you want to maintain your pace around switchbacks - #1 is moving right and away at the same speed you're moving left. This could short rope #2 so he can't make the turn in the bootpack or around the crevasse. This means #1 has to backup or slowdown while #2 has to speed up to make the turn. That is incredibly annoying. What #2 should have done is take in the slack as #1 rounded the corner and then let himself out as he in turn rounds the corner. This requires no change in pace between either partner and it removes slack from the rope, which could keep an easy-to-arrest slip from turning into a full blown fall.

By the way, a prusik knot/sliding hitch is bi-directional and more versatile than a klemheist and recommended for pre-rigging prusiks. However, Klemheists are less complicated to set up when tying the rescue prusiks, though one could screw up the loading direction (this is bad). I prefer the sliding hitch with all but dyneema or slings. Then I use the klemheist.
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Re: Private Guide on Rainier?

Post by jeffth5 »

Monster5 wrote:Prusiks on rope serve multiple functions. While many of these scenarios are worst case, it's better to be prepared for them rather than bank on a nearby rope team hauling you out.

-As Greg points out, it makes responding to a crevasse fall faster, safer, and more efficient. While (basic scenario) #2 is arresting and holding the weight, #3 is moving himself closer to #2 to build an anchor. You don't want any slack in the rope as #3 moves to #2 as that creates the potential for a large dynamic fall, so #3 brings him/herself in by taking in slack on the prusik. Meanwhile, #1 is freezing inside a crevasse and #2 is freezing, uncomfortable, and straining on arrest, so you don't want to be fumbling around throwing on prusiks. They should be pre-rigged.

-In the event you're #1 inside the crevasse (and it is a full blown crevasse fall), you'll probably be pretty uncomfortable - big pack trying to flip you upside down until you lower it on a tether, making sweet love to an icy wall, gloves and ax dangling and tangling, dripping wet, cold, difficult to breath with the tension on the harness, and so forth. Do you really want to add the burden of throwing on prusiks and risk dropping them when you could've easily pre-rigged earlier?

-An important aspect that most guided parties miss out on entirely because the guide is watching for them: managing slack between partners. First, let me preface this by saying that prusiks alone are not meant to take moderate-large falls and should never be relied on to do so - set up an anchored belay or do a running belay if the fall risk increases. Similarly, never travel with the prusiks choked up on slack - let the rope take the force of any significant fall.
The prusik allows rope mates to remove slack when entering/leaving safe zones (ropemates converging or separating), transferring pickets/pro, switchbacking or making sharp turns up a slope, or ropemates grouping together for whatever other reason. During these scenarios, you don't want unreasonable slack in the rope during any part of the process (unless the safe zone is large enough for you all to enter prior to converging) as it creates the potential for a big dynamic fall on a skinny 8 mm ish line. That is bad and will make it hard for your partners to arrest while getting yanked from their feet. The prusik/slack management keeps the fall force closer to static levels, which it can handle. Additionally, you want to maintain your pace around switchbacks - #1 is moving right and away at the same speed you're moving left. This could short rope #2 so he can't make the turn in the bootpack or around the crevasse. This means #1 has to backup or slowdown while #2 has to speed up to make the turn. That is incredibly annoying. What #2 should have done is take in the slack as #1 rounded the corner and then let himself out as he in turn rounds the corner. This requires no change in pace between either partner and it removes slack from the rope, which could keep an easy-to-arrest slip from turning into a full blown fall.

By the way, a prusik knot/sliding hitch is bi-directional and more versatile than a klemheist and recommended for pre-rigging prusiks. However, Klemheists are less complicated to set up when tying the rescue prusiks, though one could screw up the loading direction (this is bad). I prefer the sliding hitch with all but dyneema or slings. Then I use the klemheist.
+1

I would also add that if any of this is sounding unfamiliar, you should take a class or seek instruction from knowledgeable climbers before attempting a glaciated peak. While the guiding companies do not have clients pre-rig prusiks on the DC route of Rainier, they are counting on the fact that there are other rope teams there to direct haul out a fallen climber and/or other guides there to expedite the setup of a pulley system. If I wanted to be cynical about it, IMO, it really comes down to money and time. It takes time to teach crevasse rescue and they couldn't run clients up and down Rainier in their 3 day programs (1 day snow school training + 2 day climb) if they took the time to teach these concepts.

Speaking from my experience, if you take one of the skills classes that are usually 6+ days, you will learn crevasse rescue. Most importantly, you will get actual experience prusiking/self rescuing inside a crevasse, holding a fall and setting up a rescue. These techniques are difficult learn from reading a book and practicing in your yard - not that crevasse rescue can't be self-taught, but it takes more than some reading and playing with ropes and pulleys in the yard.

Honestly, if you are looking to invest in yourself, your money is better spent taking a 6, 8 or 12 day (most common offerings) mountaineering skills seminar with one of the guide companies. The seminars are only slightly more than the $1,000 - $1,300 that the services charge for Rainier and after you are done, you will have learned many of the skills that are required for basic mountaineering and will be able to tackle many of the routes on Rainier. You also get to pick the brain of the guides for the entire course and steer some of the course content. If you want to learn 2-person crevasse rescue or you want to refine your ice climbing technique or you want to get into mixed climbing, then you get that chance.

Again, alternatively, if you are lucky, you might find more experienced climbers willing to teach you these same things for free. Buy them beer if they volunteer!
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Re: Private Guide on Rainier?

Post by djkest »

Do unguided people generally leave their packs, bags, and pads at camp Muir on Ascent day? I suppose this would be a similar (but different) scenario than leaving your stuff at Capitol lake.
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Re: Private Guide on Rainier?

Post by Scott P »

Do unguided people generally leave their packs, bags, and pads at camp Muir on Ascent day?
I assume they just leave it in their tent (at least everyone did when I climbed it). Since most people start summit day so early, most people who summit seem to be packing up camp at about the same time other climbers on their way up arrive.
Last edited by Scott P on Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Private Guide on Rainier?

Post by MonGoose »

djkest wrote:Do unguided people generally leave their packs, bags, and pads at camp Muir on Ascent day? I suppose this would be a similar (but different) scenario than leaving your stuff at Capitol lake.
Yes. Everyone leaves their camping gear in camp and takes only what they need for the ascent. That is part of the what makes the trip unique, the 4,600' of elevation gain from Paradise (5,400') to Camp Muir (10,100') with 50 lb packs during the day followed by the summit attempt with (relatively) light packs in the dark.
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Re: Private Guide on Rainier?

Post by JonW »

MonGoose wrote:... with 50 lb packs during the day followed by the summit attempt with (relatively) light packs in the dark.
50 lbs for the DC! Yikes!! All your gear for the DC should fit in a 45L pack and weigh less than 35lbs.

Here is a great article on SummitPost on climbing Rainier:
http://www.summitpost.org/so-you-want-t ... ier/507227" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Private Guide on Rainier?

Post by MonGoose »

JonW wrote:
MonGoose wrote:... with 50 lb packs during the day followed by the summit attempt with (relatively) light packs in the dark.
50 lbs for the DC! Yikes!! All your gear for the DC should fit in a 45L pack and weigh less than 35lbs.
I'm skeptical that you can shave 15lbs off of this list but I'm open to suggestions:

Item, Weight in lbs
Black Diamond Mission 50L Backpack 3.44
Tent Poles 3.48
Tents Stakes 1.27
Mountain Hardwear Sleeping Bag 2.92
Thermarest 1.32
Canon G16 Camera 0.86
Avalanche Beacon 0.76
Avalanche Probe 0.63
MSR Snow Picket 0.93
Black Diamond Helmet 0.78
Black Diamond Gloves 0.76
BCA Snow Saw 0.49
Ice Axe 1.34
Snow Shovel 1.62
Grivel Crampons 2.84
Climbing Harness, 5 locking carabiners,
4 non-locking carabiners, prusiks and runners 2.81
2 Trekking Poles 1.22
2 Black Diamond Headlamps 0.41
Ipod with Speaker 0.27
Emergency Bivy 0.24
Pocket Knife 0.18
MSR Pillow 0.19
Cooking Pot 0.47
Micro Rocket Stove 0.29
16oz of Isobutane .99
Suunto Ambit2 Watch (GPS, Altimeter, etc) 0.19
3x Mountaineering Socks 0.62
Empty Nalgene with Insulated Case 0.61
MH Blue Shirt 0.54
Patagonia Synthetic Shirt 0.39
Synthetic Sitting Pad 0.13
Black Diamond Liner Gloves 0.14
ArcTeryx Jacket 0.8
Black Diamond Primaloft Jacket 1.75
Black Diamond Primaloft Pants 1.13
Patagonia Down Jacket 0.55
Backpacking Cup 0.22
Gaiters 0.82
Ski Cap 0.16
Camelback (empty) 0.68
Baseball Cap 0.19
Food ~5
2 Liters of Water 4

Total Weight 48.43
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Re: Private Guide on Rainier?

Post by Scott P »

I'm skeptical that you can shave 15lbs off of this list but I'm open to suggestions:
Hi Mongoose,

It comes down to personal taste, but I'd say that some of those items could probably be cut out.
Tent Poles 3.48
Tents Stakes 1.27
Do the poles really weigh 3.48 for one person? Or is this for the entire tent? Also, I couldn't imagine 1.27 for tent stakes. Since you will likely want to leave your poles in Camp Muir anyway, a few snow tent stakes and the trekking poles buried horizontally as tent anchors should be enough.
BCA Snow Saw 0.49
I don't think you would need one in season.
Climbing Harness, 5 locking carabiners,
4 non-locking carabiners, prusiks and runners 2.81
I might take a few less 'biners myself, at least on the standard route.

5 lbs of food seems a bit much as well, if it is mostly dehydrated.

Anyway, it will come down to personal preference. You certainly sound prepared.
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Re: Private Guide on Rainier?

Post by jeffth5 »

You all should leave the camelbaks at home for Rainier. They will freeze. Last time, my Nalgenes filled with Gatorade turned into a slushy mess as it was about 20F on the summit, which is actually pretty warm.

Nice gear list, and much better than the one in the linked summitpost article which was lacking important items such as beacon, shovel, probe for summer. If you are only taking 35lbs and traveling 'light' then you should understand that you are trading the increased risk of not being prepared for the decreased risk of moving faster through the objective hazards. As long as you are comfortable with this tradeoff, I think it's okay to leave some things behind, but its not a choice I would be comfortable with. I certainly wouldn't recommend this approach to first-timers.
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