Around the world with lots of peaks, inc Matterhorn and Fuji

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SarahT
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Re: Around the world with lots of peaks, inc Matterhorn and

Post by SarahT »

alpiner84 wrote:I'll be arriving straight from a summer of 14ers etc in Colorado, so I'm hoping I won't have to "test out" of anything first (though I will, of course, inquire about that first).
Sorry to say, but don't plan on "testing out" of the pre-Matterhorn evaluation climb because you have been climbing 14ers. Other than getting in good physical condition, climbing the 14ers is certainly no kind of preparation for that kind of climb. Even with a substantial rock/alpine climbing resume my husband & I wouldn't have been able to skip the "test" climb when we were looking at going guided several years ago.
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Re: Around the world with lots of peaks, inc Matterhorn and

Post by RobertKay »

You might want to contact Keith Garvey. He lives in Ridgway but guides a lot in Switzerland, including the Matterhorn. Take a look here: http://www.allmountainadventures.com/al ... atterhorn/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've climbed with Keith and enjoyed his company. He is very skilled and will also let you "do your own thing" to a certain extent if he feels like your skills are up to the challenge. The price is not what you are looking for but you get more than a summit on the Matterhorn and perhaps he would consider just the summit for a reduced fee. If it were me, I'd call him and see if you could meet up for a skills test somewhere near Ridgway. It's worth a try.
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Re: Around the world with lots of peaks, inc Matterhorn and

Post by Pops921 »

Dave Miller, the owner of California Alpine guides, goes to the Alps every summer. I climbed with Dave on Mount Blanc. We also did other alpine rock climbs in the Chamonix, France area. He is very good. He has multiple ascents of the Matterhorn, Eiger etc… I expect you will need to convince Dave you have the skills to climb the Matterhorn, either via resume or test climbing. He sometimes has breaks in his European schedule, where he is looking for something to do. Although I suspect local guides are cheaper, it may be worth a phone call.

http://www.californiaalpineguides.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Around the world with lots of peaks, inc Matterhorn and

Post by alpiner84 »

SarahT wrote:
alpiner84 wrote:I'll be arriving straight from a summer of 14ers etc in Colorado, so I'm hoping I won't have to "test out" of anything first (though I will, of course, inquire about that first).
Sorry to say, but don't plan on "testing out" of the pre-Matterhorn evaluation climb because you have been climbing 14ers. Other than getting in good physical condition, climbing the 14ers is certainly no kind of preparation for that kind of climb. Even with a substantial rock/alpine climbing resume my husband & I wouldn't have been able to skip the "test" climb when we were looking at going guided several years ago.
Rats :? And you have one heck of a resume. Good to know, though, thanks!

And thanks for the links--I'll check them out.
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Re: Around the world with lots of peaks, inc Matterhorn and

Post by OklahomaMountainMan »

I climbed Mt. Fuji last August so I can only give you information on the summer crowds and conditions. Fuji is most crowded during the predawn hours because most people want to see the sunrise from the summit. I climbed it from 9am to 6pm. It was crowded but nothing too bad. Probably comparable to an easy 14er on a summer weekend. I have read that a winter ascent of Fuji is much more challenging because of avalanche danger but you will have the mountain completely to yourself. All the huts and ranger stations will be closed and a rescue may not happen if you get in a hairy situation. I climbed the Yoshida Trail and had a great time. Just prepare yourself for over 55 switchbacks on loose volcanic ash on the descent :lol: . It is a beautiful mountain!
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Re: Around the world with lots of peaks, inc Matterhorn and

Post by alpiner84 »

OklahomaMountainMan wrote: Fuji is most crowded during the predawn hours because most people want to see the sunrise from the summit.
Hm...is the trail clear enough to follow by headlamp on a clear night? I'm thinking sunset summit, or full moon summit. It would be very Richard Halliburton-esque, too!
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Re: Around the world with lots of peaks, inc Matterhorn and

Post by tlongpine »

MountainMedic wrote:Sorry to provide nothing but admonishment, but the Matterhorn is a very serious mountain - it's responsible for more deaths than any other mountain in the world.
This isn't correct. In fact, not even close to correct. Matterhorn has claimed ~500 lives. Mt Blanc has claimed as estimated 6,000-8,000 lives. Mt Blanc's margin of error is 4 times larger than the Matterhorn's total fatalities.

Anyway, to the question at hand. Yes, Matterhorn is dangerous but it can be done unguided. If that's an option, one additional factor to consider, in addition to the risks warned here, is the grief, judgement and general surliness you'll receive from the guides you'll encounter along the route. Rightly or wrongly, they see unguided climbers as contributing to the overall risk. Rightly or wrongly, you're free to view guides in the same light. ;)
I am unable to walk away from the mountain without climbing it. An unclimbed mountain tugs at my consciousness with the eternal weight of time itself. Until I've pressed my face into it's alpine winds, hugged it's ancient granite walls, and put it's weathered summit beneath my heal I'm unable to resist it's attraction.Knowing nature gives the mountain more time than she gives us adds urgency to the obsession. As has been said before; the mountain doesn't care.

It can wait forever. I cannot.
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Re: Around the world with lots of peaks, inc Matterhorn and

Post by Scott P »

Matterhorn has claimed ~500 lives. Mt Blanc has claimed as estimated 6,000-8,000 lives.
For those that are interested, I believe it's actually just over 600 for the Matterhorn and just over 1000 for Blanc. Mt Blanc has a longer climbing history though, so the margin of death is only slightly higher when time is taken into account.

Anyway, the 600 and 1000 deaths come directly from the rescue services at the base of the mountain and they keep good records. Beware of using data from various sensationalized media articles and such.
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Re: Around the world with lots of peaks, inc Matterhorn and

Post by OklahomaMountainMan »

is the trail clear enough to follow by headlamp on a clear night?
The Yoshida Trail was very well marked and should be fairly straightforward to follow on the ascent. The descent would be a little more challenging because you go down a different trail than the one you came up. The descending trail eventually joins the ascending trail but could be tricky to find in snow. Fuji was an amazing experience and I hope that you are able to climb it!
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Re: Around the world with lots of peaks, inc Matterhorn and

Post by tlongpine »

Scott P wrote:
Matterhorn has claimed ~500 lives. Mt Blanc has claimed as estimated 6,000-8,000 lives.
For those that are interested, I believe it's actually just over 600 for the Matterhorn and just over 1000 for Blanc.
Here's what I'm able to find on total Mt. Blanc deaths: Alan Arnette(1) pegs it at 1,400, Adventure Journal (2)estimates 6-8k, the Atlantic (3) cites 100 deaths a year. Last year 22 people perished in less than the span of a week, in 2008 68 climbers died, 30 in a single month in 2007 (4).

I'll grant that the Atlantic article is far-fetched. 100 fatalities a year over the 227 years since it's first attempt would total more that 20,000 deaths. However, a far more conservative estimate of 10 annual fatalities would still total more than 2200 deaths.
Scott P wrote:
Mt Blanc has a longer climbing history though, so the margin of death is only slightly higher when time is taken into account.
To your point that Mt Blanc's history is longer, and therefore, this accounts for a "slightly higher" death toll.

For the purpose of this exercise, I'll grant your citation of ~600 deaths on Matterhorn. A google search suggests a range as much as 25% lower (between 450 and "more than 500") but I'm willing to give your citation the benefit of the doubt.

Mt Blanc was first climbed in 1786 (227 years ago) and Matterhorn was climbed in 1865 (148 years ago). Therefore, Mt. Blanc's climbing history is ~50% longer, but even by the most conservative citation here (1,400, Arnette) it accounts for more than twice as many fatalities.

Obviously, there is a significant range in the estimate of total number of deaths on the Mt Blanc massif but I've chosen a conservative standard to prove the point: Matterhorn is, by any measure, far from being "responsible for more deaths than any other mountain in the world".

1. http://www.alanarnette.com/7summits/montblancfaq.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2. http://www.adventure-journal.com/2012/0 ... -universe/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3. http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... ns/260143/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
4. http://climbing.about.com/b/2009/01/18/ ... untain.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am unable to walk away from the mountain without climbing it. An unclimbed mountain tugs at my consciousness with the eternal weight of time itself. Until I've pressed my face into it's alpine winds, hugged it's ancient granite walls, and put it's weathered summit beneath my heal I'm unable to resist it's attraction.Knowing nature gives the mountain more time than she gives us adds urgency to the obsession. As has been said before; the mountain doesn't care.

It can wait forever. I cannot.
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Re: Around the world with lots of peaks, inc Matterhorn and

Post by I fall a lot »

tlongpine wrote:
Scott P wrote:
Matterhorn has claimed ~500 lives. Mt Blanc has claimed as estimated 6,000-8,000 lives.
For those that are interested, I believe it's actually just over 600 for the Matterhorn and just over 1000 for Blanc.
Here's what I'm able to find on total Mt. Blanc deaths: Alan Arnette(1) pegs it at 1,400, Adventure Journal (2)estimates 6-8k, the Atlantic (3) cites 100 deaths a year. Last year 22 people perished in less than the span of a week, in 2008 68 climbers died, 30 in a single month in 2007 (4).

I'll grant that the Atlantic article is far-fetched. 100 fatalities a year over the 227 years since it's first attempt would total more that 20,000 deaths. However, a far more conservative estimate of 10 annual fatalities would still total more than 2200 deaths.
Scott P wrote:
Mt Blanc has a longer climbing history though, so the margin of death is only slightly higher when time is taken into account.
To your point that Mt Blanc's history is longer, and therefore, this accounts for a "slightly higher" death toll.

For the purpose of this exercise, I'll grant your citation of ~600 deaths on Matterhorn. A google search suggests a range as much as 25% lower (between 450 and "more than 500") but I'm willing to give your citation the benefit of the doubt.

Mt Blanc was first climbed in 1786 (227 years ago) and Matterhorn was climbed in 1865 (148 years ago). Therefore, Mt. Blanc's climbing history is ~50% longer, but even by the most conservative citation here (1,400, Arnette) it accounts for more than twice as many fatalities.

Obviously, there is a significant range in the estimate of total number of deaths on the Mt Blanc massif but I've chosen a conservative standard to prove the point: Matterhorn is, by any measure, far from being "responsible for more deaths than any other mountain in the world".

1. http://www.alanarnette.com/7summits/montblancfaq.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2. http://www.adventure-journal.com/2012/0 ... -universe/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3. http://www.theatlantic.com/internationa ... ns/260143/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
4. http://climbing.about.com/b/2009/01/18/ ... untain.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Around the world with lots of peaks, inc Matterhorn and

Post by Scott P »

Here's what I'm able to find on total Mt. Blanc deaths: Alan Arnette(1) pegs it at 1,400, Adventure Journal (2)estimates 6-8k, the Atlantic (3) cites 100 deaths a year. Last year 22 people perished in less than the span of a week, in 2008 68 climbers died, 30 in a single month in 2007 (4).
I believe that 1400 is for the region, rather than the mountain itself (or even the Massif). There was a big debate a couple years ago, starting on SP, but expanding to other sites concerning the world's most dangerous mountain. After much debate we decided to email the rescue services themselves (the contacts are still on the thread I believe). The best they could come up with is just over 1000 deaths for the Mt Blanc Massif and more than 1300 for the region. Given this was a few years ago, the 1400 is probably close.

One thing to keep in mind however, that even with the figure of 1000+ for the Mont Blanc Massif, the Mont Blanc Massif is huge and covers many peaks, while the Matterhorn is a singular peak.

This is the Mont Blanc Massif:

Image

Your 68 deaths figure in 2008, for example, is for the entire Massif and even then the deaths will add up to just over 1000, at least according to the mountain rescue services.

Of course, emailing Alan Arnette and seeing where he got the 1400 figure would be useful (he is a 14ers.com and SP member and I've done a few climbs with him, so I bet he'd be happy to provide some insight).

The Atlantic and Adventure journals are obviously far fetched.

One thing to also keep in mind for both the Matterhorn and Blanc figures, they include other deaths rather than just climbers. They also include skiers on the lower slopes, tourists, etc.
Matterhorn is, by any measure, far from being "responsible for more deaths than any other mountain in the world".
This I agree with (actually I also agree that the Mont Blanc Massif has killed more than the Matterhorn).

Tambora was responsible for over 90,000 deaths. Krakatau over 36,000. More recently (1985), Ruiz killed more than 23,000.

Except for Huascarán (which has killed 10's of thousands), all of the mountains responsible for the most deaths are volcanoes.

*PS, I am posting all this not to argue or to prove anything, but because I am very interested in mountain history and statistics, even if this part of mountaineering history is somewhat morbid. I hope no one is offended by the discussion.
Last edited by Scott P on Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:18 am, edited 8 times in total.
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