Planning and advice; first trip for WI'er

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shearmodulus
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Re: Planning and advice; first trip for WI'er

Post by shearmodulus »

+1 on 1000 feet per hour as a good target. Sounds easier than it is....

+1 on hydration, hydration, hydration. Air is drier here any time of the year, and more so over the winter. Your body will dehydrate faster than you expect, and this will lead to your first sign of AMS, the headache...

+1 on medication helping.... but my medication I mean ibuprofen or aspirin for mild headaches. Don't try to get a prescription for Diamox. You won't need it.

Be disciplined about taking breaks. As in, "Be sure to take breaks." I'm good about taking routine breaks for water, food and foot care when I'm with a group, but when I'm solo.... terrible. I always push too hard and fast and wind up almost bonking on the way down. It's a bad habit. I know. Being young and fit only gets you so far in life. :-p Old age and craftiness gets you the rest of the way.

A famous mountaineer once said - "Summiting is optional; getting back is mandatory." I've turned around more times than I care to admit because I didn't like the weather, I didn't like the snow, or I just had a bad feeling. Trust your instincts unless you don't have any, and then question everything. You're more likely to get killed in the summer in Colorado by getting zapped by lightning in the routine afternoon thunder storm.

But if it weren't dangerous, where would the thrill be, right?
"Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads...."
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druid2112
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Re: Planning and advice; first trip for WI'er

Post by druid2112 »

Water, water, water. As if CO isn't already dry enough, which it is, I believe adequate hydration is the best thing (other than time, obviously) to (perhaps) mitigate altitude sickness. Even then, I really believe its just one of those individual things - some people struggle with it, others have no problems.
"You can't really dust for vomit." - Nigel Tufnel
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climbing_rob
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Re: Planning and advice; first trip for WI'er

Post by climbing_rob »

shearmodulus wrote:....

+1 on hydration, hydration, hydration. Air is drier here any time of the year, and more so over the winter. Your body will dehydrate faster than you expect, and this will lead to your first sign of AMS, the headache...

+1 on medication helping.... but my medication I mean ibuprofen or aspirin for mild headaches. Don't try to get a prescription for Diamox. You won't need it.

...
With due respect, I have a different take on these two items; do not over hydrate. This seems to be a perpetual myth to "hydrate, hydrate, hydrate". Just hydrate, well, including the day before and morning of. Perhaps it's just semantics though. Over hydration can lead to all sorts of problems, like hypernatremia and nausea.

And don't mask your potential AMS symptoms using pain meds! Why not actually try to mitigate AMS vs. dangerously masking it??? Diamox really is a wonder drug for AMS prevention, though it gets a bad rap due to mis-use, like taking too high of doses. Assuming your doc approves and you're not allergic to sulfa drugs, I personally recommend Diamox to flat-landers visiting CO to climb 14ers, it sure has helped a pal of mine, now living in San Diego. This guy used to live here and do well every year in the Pikes Peak marathon, extremely fit. Still is, doing marathons in southern CA. Well, meeting him to climb Whitney some years ago, still fit as a fiddle, he got very ill at 14K on Whitney. Next trip, he took low-dose Diamox (60mg twice a day) for a couple days and was fine at 14K with zero side effects. I use it all the time for high altitude (way above CO altitudes) climbs, never had AMS or any other altitude symptoms. I swear by the stuff. Again, just take small doses, not the huge 250mg twice a day recommended for Glaucoma, the main use for Diamox, and what docs tend to prescribe for altitude, simply because they don't have high altitude med experience. I got the low-dose tip from a CO climbing doc, who actually did a study of low-dose use.

Finally, as much as I think GDthomas is spot on with his assessment of a particular member, there is something to be said for skipping any short-term pre-acclimation for new CO arrivals and to just climb. Lots of visiting flat-landers that come to do the Pikes marathon subscribe to this, since really they have little choice. This site:

http://skyrunner.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This used to have some good info on this subject, not sure if it's still there, but check it out.
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JTOlson26
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Re: Planning and advice; first trip for WI'er

Post by JTOlson26 »

KISS.

Listen to your body, but also know that your body will be reacting in ways it has never reacted before. You can push through some of that, but be cognizant and know if/when you are pushing into a danger zone.

Hydrate, but not excessively necessarily.

Start early and watch for the build-up of dark clouds.

Take time to stop and really look around you. Don't get swept up in summit fever without taking in everything on the way up.

Have fun and good luck!
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Re: Planning and advice; first trip for WI'er

Post by Bean »

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Last edited by Bean on Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Planning and advice; first trip for WI'er

Post by Jim Davies »

Bean wrote:Now maybe it isn't a linear relationship, but barring hard data I have a hard time believing that - generally speaking - fit people won't acclimatize better than a typical midwesterner.
There's lots of good info on this page: http://www.altitudemedicine.org/index.p ... t-altitude" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Including this:
Myth #3 - Physical fitness protects against altitude sickness.

Physical fitness offers no protection from altitude illness. In fact, many young fit athletes drive themselves too hard at altitude prior to acclimatizing thinking they can push through the discomfort. They ignore signs of altitude illness thinking it can't affect them because they are fit and healthy. Everyone, regardless of fitness, is susceptible to AMS.
Climbing at altitude is like hitting your head against a brick wall — it's great when you stop. -- Chris Darwin
I'm pretty tired. I think I'll go home now. -- Forrest Gump
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colokeith
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Re: Planning and advice; first trip for WI'er

Post by colokeith »

climbing_rob wrote: With due respect, I have a different take on these two items; do not over hydrate. This seems to be a perpetual myth to "hydrate, hydrate, hydrate". Just hydrate, well, including the day before and morning of. Perhaps it's just semantics though. Over hydration can lead to all sorts of problems, like hypernatremia and nausea.
I agree. Hydration will not prevent altitude illness, however one can easily get dehydrated at altitude and Dehydration can exacerbate symptoms of altitude, so It is important to hydrate,
There is no need to force down liquids. Drink 1-2 liters before hiking in the morning. And drink to thirst throughout the day. In the summer I like a hydration bladder with cytomax. In the winter I carry 1-2 liters in wide mouth bottles.
To climb is to push yourself in a way you might not normally imagine is possible. If your stamina, skill, and luck are sound you will get to stand on top. ... I realized that with climbing, I'd found something that nourished my soul and could forge me into a better version myself - Jim Davidson
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Bean
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Re: Planning and advice; first trip for WI'er

Post by Bean »

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Last edited by Bean on Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
"There are no hard 14ers, but some are easier than others." - Scott P
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Jim Davies
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Re: Planning and advice; first trip for WI'er

Post by Jim Davies »

To repeat: "Physical fitness offers no protection from altitude illness."

That's coming from the Institute for Altitude Medicine, headed by Dr. Peter Hackett, a leading researcher who has published over 100 papers on the subject. Maybe you could email him and ask, if you have a more specific question.

Here's a reference: High-Altitude Illness,
New England Journal of Medicine, 2001
Risk factors include a history of high-altitude illness, residence at an altitude below 900 m,
exertion, and certain preexisting cardiopulmonary conditions.

Persons over 50 years of age are somewhat less susceptible to acute mountain sickness than younger persons,
whereas the incidence in children appears to be the same as that in adults.

Women seem less susceptible to high-altitude pulmonary edema than men, but equally prone
to acute mountain sickness.

Physical fitness is not protective against high-altitude illness. Common conditions such as hypertension, coronary
artery disease, mild chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, diabetes, and pregnancy do not appear to affect the susceptibility to high-altitude illness.
Climbing at altitude is like hitting your head against a brick wall — it's great when you stop. -- Chris Darwin
I'm pretty tired. I think I'll go home now. -- Forrest Gump
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Scott P
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Re: Planning and advice; first trip for WI'er

Post by Scott P »

Now maybe it isn't a linear relationship, but barring hard data I have a hard time believing that - generally speaking - fit people won't acclimatize better than a typical midwesterner.
Bean, there is plenty of hard data available, especially from military studies dating back many decades and some of them even being conducted on Pikes Peak.

A fit person may have better blood flow and lung capacity which may help when exercising hard and as mentioned there a few exceptions and certain ailments (heart conditions, etc.), but really generally speaking fit people don't acclimatize any better. A fat person may not be able to run at altitude and may have diminished capacity, or can have a heart attack easier, but it doesn't mean they will be more prone to getting sick. People with lung problems do get it easier and there are more people with lung problems among people less physically fit than those who don't so I guess there is some correlation.

I have also seen one study done in a decompression chamber where less physically fit people were more susceptible (at least when exercising), but even then this would be far counteracted by the slower speed that they would walk or climb. The study was also referring to only mild AMS rather than oedema (see below).

If you do any search and most studies basically say the same thing. Here's what WebMD says (random example):

Mild altitude sickness is common. In the United States, more than 20% of people visiting the western mountains get it.1 Experts do not know who will get it and who will not. Being male or female and your fitness level play no role in whether you get altitude sickness.

This not only true with mild AMS, but with Oedema as well. Oedema is caused by serous fluid buildup in the intercellular tissues in your body. Whether you are fit or not has nothing to do with swelling.

If you get hit over the head with a hammer, does your fitness generally determine how big the bump on your head is or how much it swells?

Here are 13.5 million sources to search through and plenty of studies to find:

http://www.bing.com/search?q=altitude+s ... 35ff7fd0c8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I hear this over and over and over and it's not what I'm asking. Where is the research showing that for a given population, big fat lazy fatties will acclimatize 100% as well as superfit athletes?
Many studies show this. Here is a very extensive one involving 3,158 people that even studied mountain climbers and mentions obesity as a studied risk factor:

http://www.ebmedicine.net/topics.php?pa ... seg_id=110" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[A 2002 study of mountaineers by Schneider et al did not validate the above risk factors. However, it looked at a select group; i.e., fit mountaineers, many of whom had prior altitude experience; plus, there was a election bias, as only those who had made it to 4559 m were included.7 The study by Honigan et al is here fore considered a better representation of individuals at risk for altitude illness. Physical fitness level has not been shown to influence the incidence of AMS.8 9

How about this?

http://www.altituderesearch.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fitness does not protect against altitude sickness. Everyone’s body responds differently to altitude hypoxia.

Anyone who goes to altitude can get AMS; despite age, gender, physical fitness, or previous altitude experience. If you know from previous experience that you are susceptible to AMS, there are steps you can take to prevent it.

If you're in to long and boring government studies, read through any of the military ones as well.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, I have had AMS. It was when I was physically fit, 18 years old, and went up Popocatépetl too quickly. Please don't think that being physically fit somehow exempts you. The super fat usually don't climb mountains anyway. It is actually fairly rare to have severe life threatening altitude sickness in Colorado, but the risk increases substantially the higher you go.

Also, no matter what physical or mental fitness you have, there is evidence that going high without acclimatizing causes some brain damage, even though usually minor.

It is a bad idea to just say that the fitter you are the better you will acclimatize.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With due respect, I have a different take on these two items; do not over hydrate.
Rob, this is absolutely true, but most people have more a problem with under hydrating than over, which is why it is emphasised so much.
I'm old, slow and fat. Unfortunately, those are my good qualities.
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Re: Planning and advice; first trip for WI'er

Post by Bean »

.
Last edited by Bean on Thu Apr 16, 2020 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Planning and advice; first trip for WI'er

Post by colokeith »

Bean wrote: Brain damage from getting too high too fast is a serious concern and a risk I don't care to mess with.
Someone is taking advantage of the new legislation \:D/

(sorry for the unnecessary reference to Pot Legalization. Now I feel like the Denver Post)
To climb is to push yourself in a way you might not normally imagine is possible. If your stamina, skill, and luck are sound you will get to stand on top. ... I realized that with climbing, I'd found something that nourished my soul and could forge me into a better version myself - Jim Davidson
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