How to get comfortable with Class 3

[ericcc65]

I've hiked about 8 14ers so far, but they've all pretty much been class 1-2. One of the times the group I was with tried the west side of Quandary route, with an improper understanding of the difficulties involved and it was an awful experience. We made every mistake in the book. We're the kind of group that gets rightfully severely chastised here. Search and rescue came for part of our group who didn't make it down in time. We didn't make the summit. Anyway, I know we did a ton of things wrong and have learned a lot since then (and we're all fine BTW, no injuries or death). All of our other trips went off without a hitch. But that is why I want to ask a few questions.

Part of our group isn't much scared of heights or climbing. Personally I'm kind of terrified. When we got to about the third or fourth tower in Quandary (I got through photo #16 with great fear, but couldn't bring myself to attempt photo 17). I was pretty much in panic mode, whereas some of our group was okay. Some are now saying that we'll have to be willing to do class 3 hikes if we're going to continue an annual trip, we're running out of easier ones. I've read the threads here that just say to get more experience, but how exactly do you do that? We've done more class 2 stuff, but I don't feel prepared for something like Quandary was. Are there classes I can take that will start from beginner and get me more knowledge, comfort, and experience doing class 3? Should I take rock climbing classes, and will that help if it's just an indoor wall? Should we bring rope and learn techniques for using it properly to decrease the fear on the exposed class 3 stuff? Or will that safety net make things more dangerous? There is one guy who just recently joined our group who has taken scrambling classes in which he did class 3 and class 4 stuff, so maybe he could lead us and help us find good routes. I'm pretty sure I'm not interested in ever doing class 4, I don't want a mistake to lead to death. But I'm wondering about doing class 3 routes (which sometimes say they need class 4 moves) and just how much experience I need for that and how to get it.

After Quandary I'd like to think I've learned my lesson and that I should either not go or be sure I'm prepared. They were thinking of doing Lindsey next because it said class 2+. But I notice on this site that it recommends a class 3/4 route instead of the 2+ route as it says the more stable class 3/4 is safer than the unstable class 2+. Can anyone comment on how the exposed class 3 section on Lindsey compares to the first few sections of Quandary or what I can do to prepare for that?

I couldn't tell which forum was best for this, let me know if it should go elsewhere.

[Broken Knee]

" Should we bring rope and learn techniques for using it properly to decrease the fear on the exposed class 3 stuff?"

I don't think there is a single prescription for learning to move efficiently on class 3 terrain, deal with exposure, etc. For sure, doing lots of climbing will help most people. Learning to downclimb steep rock is useful. Learning to deal with loose rock is useful, etc. If you can find a mentor, he or she can spot you and advise you on areas that you need to improve. A solid partner calms the nerves of the less experienced. Many people do benefit by 5th class instruction, but I believe the best training for unroped climbing is... unroped climbing!

[Jim Davies]

IMO Quandary is a terrible choice for a first class 3. Loose rock, difficult routefinding, and the lack of an easy descent route directly to Blue Lakes leads people to poor choices.

I'm not sure how you train yourself for class 3 exactly. The real problem is probably comfort with exposure, and that's really in your head. Climbing the actual class 3 moves is intuitive for anybody that's been a kid; it's really no harder than climbing trees and monkey bars, except less regular so you have to make route choices. I think the way you learn to handle exposure (like many things) is to work up to it. I like to steer people to the class 3 east ridge of Father Dyer for just this reason, since it's not too exposed, but a little bit at times, so you can relax between the harder parts. Another route with short class 3 is Wetterhorn, but it's very exposed so maybe not a good choice. Somebody will doubtless recommend the Sawtooth, but I also don't like that for newbies since it's committing - no way to bail in the middle without climbing out (like Quandary W ridge, in fact).

Lindsey would be another bad choice, I think. The crux is a little difficult, and if you freak out at loose stuff you'll have a hard time getting down. I'd go for something simpler next, Father Dyer or Kelso Ridge maybe.

[thurs]

Part of our group isn't much scared of heights or climbing. Personally I'm kind of terrified.

That's fine. We've done plenty of unroped, exposed scrambles with people who are terrified of heights. That's kind of the point of it, actually. So long as you don't lock up from fear...

I've read the threads here that just say to get more experience, but how exactly do you do that? We've done more class 2 stuff, but I don't feel prepared for something like Quandary was. Are there classes I can take that will start from beginner and get me more knowledge, comfort, and experience doing class 3? Should I take rock climbing classes, and will that help if it's just an indoor wall?

Rock climbing (classes or not) will probably be most helpful. Outdoors will really get you more comfortable with being on top of 150 foot cliffs. Indoors will help too though. There are a number of benefits -- improved technique, balance, and strength will help you complete the scrambling/climbing sections faster and more comfortably. Constant exposure to large cliffs and finding the easiest lines up them will improve your route-finding and comfort in such situations. Even bouldering might be highly beneficial as you can experience that same feeling of terror when you have to make a dicey move a good deal above the ground -- except you have mats to land on and not a sloping couloir of doom.

Should we bring rope and learn techniques for using it properly to decrease the fear on the exposed class 3 stuff? Or will that safety net make things more dangerous?

No. Ropes are heavy and everyone will have to haul the associated gear up there. On many Class 3s and 4s there is not any great places to put protection where it is actually going to help you. Learning to build anchors and rope safety techniques is a lot of work and time that you could alternatively be spending actually climbing stuff in the gym or hiking. The rope is going to slow you down, make things a lot more complicated, make your day much longer (and thus more unsafe), for comparatively little benefit.

There is one guy who just recently joined our group who has taken scrambling classes in which he did class 3 and class 4 stuff, so maybe he could lead us and help us find good routes. I'm pretty sure I'm not interested in ever doing class 4, I don't want a mistake to lead to death.

I have been on nasty loose Class 2s where a mistake leads to death. Class 4 can be a misnomer as many of the Class 4 problems I have encountered were more protected/less exposed than the easier options around it. But when you get comfortable with Class 3s (which are often "mistake = death" exposed) you will likely be tackling Class 4 problems and not even realizing it due to routefinding nuances. Hence what mentioned about "needing class 4 moves," the line blurs at a certain point.

But I notice on this site that it recommends a class 3/4 route instead of the 2+ route as it says the more stable class 3/4 is safer than the unstable class 2+.

My point above. The safer route may actually be the more "technical" one. It may actually be harder to really mess up on that, as opposed to stepping on a loose rock while offbalance on the Class 2 and facing serious consequences. It really depends on how comfortable you are with moving vertically on solid rock. If you do a lot of bouldering it WILL feel safer to ascend a steep or nearly vertical solid gully as opposed to skirting around it on unstable and dangerous loose Class 2 terrain.

Can anyone comment on how the exposed class 3 section on Lindsey compares to the first few sections of Quandary or what I can do to prepare for that?

That I do not know, I have not been on Lindsey.


Here are my recommendations:

There are a lot of mountains where you can hit some Class 3/4 stuff in a comfortable environment without being pressured into it or forced to face serious exposure. Think of the larger Lost Creek Wilderness peaks, where you can decide to hop on the rock piles and scramble to the top if you are interested. Other routes would be Democrat North Ridge (the class 3/4 never felt mandatory), Buckskin BM (random 13er shoutout!), and similar routes where the technical difficulties are exposed on the ridgeline next to an otherwise benign slope.

Route finding is huge. If you wander up many Class 3 routes without a clue you easily end up tackling Class 4/5 problems. Some ridgelines look absolutely crazy and if you just go for them you end up forcing your way to the top up scary and difficult terrain. Like the East Ridge on Bierstadt, if you look carefully and follow the exact beta you climb some easy stuff nestled between difficult, nearly vertical rock. If you were to miss something small like the grass ledges on that route you would end up climbing the gendarme of doom and wondering how the hell it is rated at Class 3. You can really only improve this skill by climbing more and hiking more peaks. Yes, that includes making more mistakes. You should be able to look at a technical climb from the bottom and know where the major weaknesses are going to be, using that to guide your overall route. There are books, videos, and classes available to help you with this, but it really doesn't get better than memorizing some beta for a difficult route and following it through, and then understanding why that was the easier route compared to others.

It also really helps to only focus on your next few moves, not looking too far up or down. Just concentrate on getting to the next platform or resting point, then continuing.

I think even talking so much about "Class 3" and beta and all that really psyches you up more than it needs to... I've done plenty of sketchy scrambling and impromptu routefinding in the past long before I realized I was attempting Class 3/4 routes (they just looked fun to me). Think of it less as an epic, technical route and more of a fun steep path to scramble and ascend upwards - I mean that's the point anyways. Don't obsess over it the night before and lose sleep. Know the route but also be skilled and confident enough to continue on if you get off-route (and know when to turn around if that makes consequences too high). Sooner or later you will be doing things like Kelso Ridge and intentionally ramping up the difficulty by staying directly on the ridge...just because it is fun and the rock is good. If you get comfortable with rock climbing then these giant gendarmes and cliffs of doom should look exciting as opposed to terrifying and intimidating.

BTW, as others mentioned, Quandary West Ridge is a TERRIBLE choice for a first Class 3. I wouldn't say that's representative at all of an easier, exciting Class 3. My first "official" Class 3 route was Bierstadt East Ridge and I still recommend that to many people. You can easily get way over your head on the west ridge which obviously happened to you. Travel with someone experienced on an easier Class 3 route and you should have a blast even if you don't get much training and experience before then.

[thurs]

Part of our group isn't much scared of heights or climbing. Personally I'm kind of terrified.

That's fine. We've done plenty of unroped, exposed scrambles with people who are terrified of heights. That's kind of the point of it, actually. So long as you don't lock up from fear...

I've read the threads here that just say to get more experience, but how exactly do you do that? We've done more class 2 stuff, but I don't feel prepared for something like Quandary was. Are there classes I can take that will start from beginner and get me more knowledge, comfort, and experience doing class 3? Should I take rock climbing classes, and will that help if it's just an indoor wall?

Rock climbing (classes or not) will probably be most helpful. Outdoors will really get you more comfortable with being on top of 150 foot cliffs. Indoors will help too though. There are a number of benefits -- improved technique, balance, and strength will help you complete the scrambling/climbing sections faster and more comfortably. Constant exposure to large cliffs and finding the easiest lines up them will improve your route-finding and comfort in such situations. Even bouldering might be highly beneficial as you can experience that same feeling of terror when you have to make a dicey move a good deal above the ground -- except you have mats to land on and not a sloping couloir of doom.

Should we bring rope and learn techniques for using it properly to decrease the fear on the exposed class 3 stuff? Or will that safety net make things more dangerous?

No. Ropes are heavy and everyone will have to haul the associated gear up there. On many Class 3s and 4s there is not any great places to put protection where it is actually going to help you. Learning to build anchors and rope safety techniques is a lot of work and time that you could alternatively be spending actually climbing stuff in the gym or hiking. The rope is going to slow you down, make things a lot more complicated, make your day much longer (and thus more unsafe), for comparatively little benefit.

There is one guy who just recently joined our group who has taken scrambling classes in which he did class 3 and class 4 stuff, so maybe he could lead us and help us find good routes. I'm pretty sure I'm not interested in ever doing class 4, I don't want a mistake to lead to death.

I have been on nasty loose Class 2s where a mistake leads to death. Class 4 can be a misnomer as many of the Class 4 problems I have encountered were more protected/less exposed than the easier options around it. But when you get comfortable with Class 3s (which are often "mistake = death" exposed) you will likely be tackling Class 4 problems and not even realizing it due to routefinding nuances. Hence what mentioned about "needing class 4 moves," the line blurs at a certain point.

But I notice on this site that it recommends a class 3/4 route instead of the 2+ route as it says the more stable class 3/4 is safer than the unstable class 2+.

My point above. The safer route may actually be the more "technical" one. It may actually be harder to really mess up on that, as opposed to stepping on a loose rock while offbalance on the Class 2 and facing serious consequences. It really depends on how comfortable you are with moving vertically on solid rock. If you do a lot of bouldering it WILL feel safer to ascend a steep or nearly vertical solid gully as opposed to skirting around it on unstable and dangerous loose Class 2 terrain.

Can anyone comment on how the exposed class 3 section on Lindsey compares to the first few sections of Quandary or what I can do to prepare for that?

That I do not know, I have not been on Lindsey.


Here are my recommendations:

There are a lot of mountains where you can hit some Class 3/4 stuff in a comfortable environment without being pressured into it or forced to face serious exposure. Think of the larger Lost Creek Wilderness peaks, where you can decide to hop on the rock piles and scramble to the top if you are interested. Other routes would be Democrat North Ridge (the class 3/4 never felt mandatory), Buckskin BM (random 13er shoutout!), and similar routes where the technical difficulties are exposed on the ridgeline next to an otherwise benign slope.

Route finding is huge. If you wander up many Class 3 routes without a clue you easily end up tackling Class 4/5 problems. Some ridgelines look absolutely crazy and if you just go for them you end up forcing your way to the top up scary and difficult terrain. Like the East Ridge on Bierstadt, if you look carefully and follow the exact beta you climb some easy stuff nestled between difficult, nearly vertical rock. If you were to miss something small like the grass ledges on that route you would end up climbing the gendarme of doom and wondering how the hell it is rated at Class 3. You can really only improve this skill by climbing more and hiking more peaks. Yes, that includes making more mistakes. You should be able to look at a technical climb from the bottom and know where the major weaknesses are going to be, using that to guide your overall route. There are books, videos, and classes available to help you with this, but it really doesn't get better than memorizing some beta for a difficult route and following it through, and then understanding why that was the easier route compared to others.

It also really helps to only focus on your next few moves, not looking too far up or down. Just concentrate on getting to the next platform or resting point, then continuing.

I think even talking so much about "Class 3" and beta and all that really psyches you up more than it needs to... I've done plenty of sketchy scrambling and impromptu routefinding in the past long before I realized I was attempting Class 3/4 routes (they just looked fun to me). Think of it less as an epic, technical route and more of a fun steep path to scramble and ascend upwards - I mean that's the point anyways. Don't obsess over it the night before and lose sleep. Know the route but also be skilled and confident enough to continue on if you get off-route (and know when to turn around if that makes consequences too high). Sooner or later you will be doing things like Kelso Ridge and intentionally ramping up the difficulty by staying directly on the ridge...just because it is fun and the rock is good. If you get comfortable with rock climbing then these giant gendarmes and cliffs of doom should look exciting as opposed to terrifying and intimidating.

BTW, as others mentioned, Quandary West Ridge is a TERRIBLE choice for a first Class 3. I wouldn't say that's representative at all of an easier, exciting Class 3. My first "official" Class 3 route was Bierstadt East Ridge and I still recommend that to many people. You can easily get way over your head on the west ridge which obviously happened to you. Travel with someone experienced on an easier Class 3 route and you should have a blast even if you don't get much training and experience before then.[/quote]


Jim Davies hits the nail on the head:

Climbing the actual class 3 moves is intuitive for anybody that's been a kid; it's really no harder than climbing trees and monkey bars, except less regular so you have to make route choices.

Like I said about psyching yourself out by thinking too much about the technicality and exposure and the trip reports and photos etc. etc. you're really just doing stuff you probably did all the time as a kid.

[metalmountain]

To echo what Jim said earlier, Quandary's west ridge is not a great first choice. I had a GF once try to break up with me because I took her up there. Go climb something that has solid rock and you might feel a lot more comfortable. I have climbed long and exposed easy class 5 sections without a rope with minimal pucker factor on really solid rock, but have been gripped on much less exposed class 3/4 sections when the rock is loose and crappy. The quality of what you're climbing on can greatly affect your confidence in executing moves.

IMO it really comes down to experience. You just have to go out and get used to the exposure. Find class 3/4 routes that have short sections of climbing and exposure so you know you will have a safe spot after you make it through the tough stuff. Kelso is great for this. You get to do some somewhat exposed climbing, but there is always a nice unexposed place to relax immediately after. I would also recommend South to North Arapaho in IPW. The traverse is rather short with some good exposure, but its not all that sustained.

Colorado Mountain Club does offer a Scrambling course as well, which might be worth checking into. That way you get to go out with some really experienced folks and have them really help you learn how to route find and also build some confidence. Once you get a few more routes under your belt things won't feel so bad

[Doug Shaw]

It also really helps to only focus on your next few moves, not looking too far up or down. Just concentrate on getting to the next platform or resting point, then continuing.

This is an extremely valuable piece of advice, and one that will serve you well at any level. Whether you're just starting on Class 3 or are comfortable with Class 3/4 and moving up to class 5, it is very easy to let the difficulty of the route mess with your head. The thing to keep in mind in the mountains is that very few routes have sustained difficult climbing without an opportunity for a break. Much more likely is there are isolated or short stretches of difficulties that you need to overcome, followed by a spot where you can pause and gather your wits. Then tackle the next obstacle, then collect yourself, etc.

[James Dziezynski]

Hey, you'll get there -- you just have to work up to it. The route finding on the West Ridge of Quandary is tough, especially at one of the downclimbs... most class 3 routes are easier. (Though for the record, Wilson Peak is a great simulation of the West Ridge of Quandary).

Like any climbing rating, class 3 can be subjective. My advise would be to find class 3 that is fun, somewhat sheltered and not all that airy. I really like the optional gully on Kit Carson from Challenger as an easier class 3 route (just past Kit Carson Avenue). Or even go to Bear Peak in Boulder -- the majority of the hike is class 2, with a little scramble at the end to the summit. The only way you'll learn to trust your hands and feet... are to use them!

Also -- if you can get in some outdoors rock climbing -- even top roping -- it can do wonders for your confidence. Don't feel bad if it's intimidating at first, it takes some time to build up your confidence. It doesn't come naturally to everyone and it certainly didn't for me!

[painless4u2]

I'd take a look at the SW Ridge of Sneffles, then maybe Challenger to Kit Carson, then Crestone Peak. After those, you'll be a class 3 convert. By the way, I failed miserably on the west ridge of Quandary, getting off route. Don't let it worry you.

[--bb--]

The Class 3 route on Lindsay is a good place to start IMO. The class 3 moves at the crux wall will give you a taste of the harder class 3 routes without a ton of exposure or high consequence. The crux wall has exposure, but it's brief/un-sustained.

Add on: if you feel uncomfortable on the Class 3 portion at the crux wall, it's not too far into the ridge to return back the way you came and catch the Class 2 route.

I'd also recommend Wetterhorn.

+1 for rock climbing

[Jim Davies]

Thinking about it a little more, maybe going with a big group isn't helping. There's a tendency to just follow along without really making decisions, and then when you're faced with something harder you haven't really learned what to do. Perhaps going out with just one partner would help.

btw, Bierstadt east ridge is also a bad early choice IMO. Better to pick a route from which you can retreat if necessary.

[thurs]

btw, Bierstadt east ridge is also a bad early choice IMO. Better to pick a route from which you can retreat if necessary.

You have a good point there. Depends on your style. We did extremely early in the morning on a good weather day, with the knowledge that it would not exceed our technical abilities and comfort level. It forced us to commit and keep going -- especially with a newbie in the group who was somewhat uncomfortable. She made it to the top as that was really the only good option available! Now she is hammering out the technical routes with a smile. I offer the East Ridge suggestion as a counterpoint to the oft-suggested Kelso, as it is shorter and the technical moves are a little lower in altitude. But if you any serious hesitations or concerns at all (sounds like you do) I would suggest a route you can bail on / switch to easier terrain.