Marking Crestone Needle Gully Crossover

[duncanmil]

There is an interesting discussion about the Crestone Needle Gully Crossover in a forum dedicated to remembering and honoring a man who just recently lost his life on the mountain. I though I would move the discussion off that forum to a new one. Someone suggested that the crossover be marked with paint such as is on Longs. I have mixed feelings, but in this case I would agree. Nothing, not even paint, is permanent and there are a few places on the 14ers that seems to justify such a marking for safety reasons. Having climbed it myself I know it is very difficult to spot, both going up and going down. Though I certainly understand that others will disagree.

[bjkent76]

Good idea and thank you for starting a new thread. I definitely didn't mean to be disrespectful.

[12ersRule]

Maybe there should be a sign at the crossover back to the east gully warning people? I know we generally believe in LNT, but if it saves a life, it is worth it. It's not like one sign would eff up anyone's day.

[painless4u2]

... in a forum dedicated to remembering and honoring a man who just recently lost his life on the mountain.

Actually, the OP in that discussion should have placed it under "Climbing Accidents: Info, Analysis and Discussion" and not "General Mountaineering Discussion". Analysis and discussion is just what this is.

[rijaca]

Should just build a large escalator with OSHA approved guardrails (42" high with 21" midrails, and toeboards).

[nsaladin]

Instead of marking the crossover, why not just make the standard route ascend and descend the east gulley? Did this route on Saturday and saw the crossover cairn on the way up and down the east gulley and wondered why the route even crosses over to the west. I would assume the west gulley is not as steep and more solid, but the east route above the crossover is not much more difficult/steep/loose than the lower portion.

[TallGrass]

Maybe there should be a sign at the crossover back to the east gully warning people? I know we generally believe in LNT, but if it saves a life, it is worth it. It's not like one sign would eff up anyone's day.

There's already a precedent atop the Needle with the technical route sign warning people not to descend that way, though I believe that's the way to rap when doing the traverse Needle->Peak, or the top out of the Ell' Arete. As mentioned in the other thread, contacting RMFI could be a good place to start.

EDIT: Here's the "Technical Only" sign on Crestone Peak.

[Cruiser]

When I was up there last summer someone had tucked a brightly colored bandanna into the rocks of the cairn at the entrance to the crossover so that it was easily visible while descending. That was nice for sure. Something a bit more permanent might not be such a bad thing. But it's always difficult to convince folks to take the big step of painting directions on the rocks in a wilderness area.

[SoCool]

This exact discussion has taken place regarding finding the Avenue back to Challenger, during a descent of Kit Carson.

Permanent markings on otherwise pristine peaks is a sensitive issue, you can see how just one or two peaks "needing" this can be a slippery slope, pun intended.

[mtree]

There are - or have been - warning signs and/or directional signs on many trails. Of those I can recall:

Kit Carson
Sunshine
Longs
Bross
Harvard
La Plata
Bierstadt
Handies?
Crestones... on approach to Lakes and I think pointing towards Broken Hand Pass

I'm sure there are many more. So this wouldn't be anything new or unusual. Yes, for some folks it may take away from the sense of adventure. Let the debate continue!

[AlexeyD]

Disclaimer: I have not done Crestone Needle yet, so I will only comment on this topic in a general sense.

I, too, have "mixed feelings" about this. I definitely see the "if it can save a life" argument, and it's an easy one to agree with. But here's the flip side. Routefinding in complex terrain is an essential skill in mountaineering. When we replace the more traditional elements in this tool kit (written/verbal descriptions, photographs, maps, navigational aids) with some sort of artificial marker, to what extent do we lose our ability to use these tools, and start overly relying on the latter? Let's assume this particular spot gets a permanent marking. How many people will now think that the entire route (never mind the rest of it) is "obvious" and not even think about the other aspects of navigation required to safely ascend and descend the mountain? Or, what if the marker is somehow missed, or obscured by snow, weather, darkness...will people just keep going, assuming that it "must" be there somewhere?

Consider the example of Longs Peak. Even with all the bulls-eyes, fatalities still occur on the Keyhole nearly every year - in many cases, from people still getting off route. Of course, a lot of this comes from the sheer numbers of climbers attempting it, but the point (and my point in general), is that, regardless of whether a marker is there or not, it should never be a substitute for good navigation and routefinding skills - rather, the marker should only be considered as another part of the toolkit, not a replacement of it.

[sdkeil]

Not to be disrespectful, but by the time you get to climbing Crestone Needle your route finding skills should be advanced enough you should not need to mark crossover points to avoid dangerous terrain. One of my frustrations is that the sport of mountaineering is not respected for what it is, a dangerous sport where death is a possibility. There are many other dangerous activities/hobbies that have a logical progression so that people learn the more advanced technique as they progress. With the 14ers I feel the logical progression is skipped as people quickly want to do more exciting peaks (not saying this is what happened in this last accident). When you add signs you are allowing for a continued dumbing down of the sport. One should not expect to have their hand held on the more difficult peaks. If people are unsure if they can back track their route, then mark the area with fluorescent surveyors tape. When you come back down pick up your tape and then LNT is followed.