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Tom Chapman Announces "New" Resort

Info, conditions and gear related to skiing or riding Colorado Peaks, including the 14ers! Ski/Ride Trip Reports
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Re: Tom Chapman Announces "New" Resort

Postby Jesse M » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:04 pm

Fair enough Doug, but what is the point?

-That he is a capitalist?
-That he is rich?
-Is it his way of doing business?

I am not really sure why this is such a big deal, calling this man a felon for being a capitalist is kinda strange. Sounds like sour grapes by the enviromaniacs. :yawn:
Last edited by Jesse M on Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tom Chapman Announces "New" Resort

Postby pills2619 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:20 pm

Ah well that sucks... what a dickhead. Anybody have a link for those Tom is a douche stickers?

And Jesse, its not that he's rich and its not that he's a fellow capitalist, its that he is unethical. He is putting himself in a position which forces us, the taxpayers to pay more for lands which we all want to use. This is the problem with capitalism, people think it means I can have everything I can get my hands on and then its all mine. Well yes but only legally speaking because no he's not doing anything illegal but what he is doing is being successful at the cost of others which in my opinion is unethical. I think that he has a right to do that but I personally could not do that to you, when I have an understanding of the joy that the mountains bring you and me and everyone else on this site. So not an extortionist just a ragging douche bag.
They forget that some crisis is necessary to hone skill. "Near misses," those brief encounters with the reality of mortality, are great learning tools if properly approached. -Denali Climbers Guidebook

Re: Tom Chapman Announces "New" Resort

Postby its_not_a_tuba » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:43 pm

there are plenty of ways to make money in real estate both legally and ethically. This guy choose a path of using mining claims and extortion of wilderness areas to force public entities to pay him huge sums of money to make him go away. That isn't capitalism, it is robbery.

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Re: Tom Chapman Announces "New" Resort

Postby Jesse M » Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:54 pm

With capitalism, the world people live in is the sum total result of each of their individual actions. In other words, capitalism makes people responsible for their own actions, whether they like it or not. It is the actions of the enviromaniacs and people who use the outdoors that have put us in this situation, giving people like Chapman the power, that's right, we have empowered Chapman and now have to live with the consequences.
Last edited by Jesse M on Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tom Chapman Announces "New" Resort

Postby pills2619 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:13 pm

Jesse, thanks ill have to check that out.
Last edited by pills2619 on Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
They forget that some crisis is necessary to hone skill. "Near misses," those brief encounters with the reality of mortality, are great learning tools if properly approached. -Denali Climbers Guidebook

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Re: Tom Chapman Announces "New" Resort

Postby pvnisher » Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:22 pm

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

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Re: Tom Chapman Announces "New" Resort

Postby Jesse M » Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:34 pm

pvnisher, I can agree with that statement, and pills I agree about it being unethical to a certain extent. No more less ethical than the fee to climb Culebra, in my opinion. Where do we go from here? Is there anything constructive we can do about it, or should we continue to make false claims about the legality of what he is doing and slander his name? I for one would like to think we are better than that.

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Re: Tom Chapman Announces "New" Resort

Postby TallGrass » Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:42 pm

pills2619 wrote: ... he is unethical ... ragging douche bag
its_not_a_tuba wrote: ... legally and ethically... robbery
:lol: ](*,) Funny how people play fast and loose with terms -- generalizations indicating a lack of depth in understanding. Above are cases in point that appeal to a myth that there is one kind of universal ethics when in fact there is none. I can think of five major ones off the top of my head in current use. What you are really objecting to is that his goals and or actions are not the same as yours, and then use ad hominem to bolster your position. "Ethics" to anyone who has studied it is not cut-and-dried; it is quite murky. What I do find ironic is that many of the opposing's actions actually further his objectives (e.g. media exposure, public umbrage).

What is good?
Is it what God wants?
Is it what a majority wants?
Is it what intellectuals want?
Is it what gives pleasure?
Is it what "makes sense"?
Is it what a/the law says/allows?
Is it based on intention?
Is it based on result?
Is it based on method?
Is it based on common good?
Is it based on individual right(s)?
Is it based on which ever version supports your position?
And what about when two or more of the above conflict? Takes less than five minutes of even e-research to see the problem with such generalizations, which are far easier to state than to operationalize.

Life just ain't that simple. If it was, we probably wouldn't have lawyers!
Not sure if I'll do more 14ers. The trip reports are too tiring. :wink:

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Re: Tom Chapman Announces "New" Resort

Postby tommelch » Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:40 pm

Easy answer:

It is what God wants, and what He created us to be.

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Re: Tom Chapman Announces "New" Resort

Postby jameseroni » Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:31 pm

TallGrass wrote:
pills2619 wrote: ... he is unethical ... ragging douche bag
its_not_a_tuba wrote: ... legally and ethically... robbery
:lol: ](*,) Funny how people play fast and loose with terms -- generalizations indicating a lack of depth in understanding. Above are cases in point that appeal to a myth that there is one kind of universal ethics when in fact there is none. I can think of five major ones off the top of my head in current use. What you are really objecting to is that his goals and or actions are not the same as yours, and then use ad hominem to bolster your position. "Ethics" to anyone who has studied it is not cut-and-dried; it is quite murky. What I do find ironic is that many of the opposing's actions actually further his objectives (e.g. media exposure, public umbrage).

What is good?
Is it what God wants?
Is it what a majority wants?
Is it what intellectuals want?
Is it what gives pleasure?
Is it what "makes sense"?
Is it what a/the law says/allows?
Is it based on intention?
Is it based on result?
Is it based on method?
Is it based on common good?
Is it based on individual right(s)?
Is it based on which ever version supports your position?
And what about when two or more of the above conflict? Takes less than five minutes of even e-research to see the problem with such generalizations, which are far easier to state than to operationalize.

Life just ain't that simple. If it was, we probably wouldn't have lawyers!


You coin the term "fast and loose" when pointing to the subject of ethics and morality. While I appreciate your sensitivity to the subject (most would hold a subjective view of what is "right and wrong", I would still submit to you, that you're mistaken.

How can there be any form of accountability from God, Country or Man if there is no universal sense of morality?

The simple and short answer is, there can't.

My belief is that man is endowed with a "conscience" (meaning "with" "knowledge") and indeed knows the difference between right and wrong - albeit, man in general most of the time suppresses the truth to pursue selfish gain on his behalf. People like to say human nature is inherently good. I would make the argument of the opposite - human nature seeks its "own good". This is evident in cultures throughout history. To coin another term, "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely".

So to answer your questions:

What is good? God alone is good
Is it what God wants? Yes
Is it what a majority wants?No
Is it what intellectuals want?No
Is it what gives pleasure?No
Is it what "makes sense"?No
Is it what a/the law says/allows?No, but I do not condone breaking the law - unless the law prohibits me to do that which God has commanded me, spread the truth.
Is it based on intention?No
Is it based on result?No
Is it based on method?No
Is it based on common good?Sometimes
Is it based on individual right(s)?No
Is it based on which ever version supports your position?Most always for most all people. However, the conscience helps to universalize this among men. In these times however, the consciences of men have become seared and calloused. This of course leads to man suppressing his conscience and eventually "calling that which is good, evil".
And what about when two or more of the above conflict?See first question for universal truth.

Re: Tom Chapman Announces "New" Resort

Postby pioletski » Sat Jan 19, 2013 7:03 pm

Y'all are getting way too philosophical.

IMHO, there is a big difference between what Mr Chapman is doing here, and the management of Culebra by Cielo Vista Ranch. In the latter case, the mountain is actually on the ranch. Chapman is trying to leverage his ownership of a couple of mining claims to control access to a vast area of PUBLIC land. Cielo Vista is exercising their property rights (and I would add that they are pretty gracious about allowing access). Chapman is engaging in extortion because he is trying to deny access to areas that he doesn't own, in order to force someone (probably T S&G, as they are the deepest pocket in town) to buy his postage-stamp of land for an exorbitant price.

If he succeeds, it's extortion. If the current stalemate continues, it's theft of public resources from the public.
The greater danger, for most of us, is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low, and we reach it.
- Michelangelo

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Re: Tom Chapman Announces "New" Resort

Postby TallGrass » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:17 pm

pioletski wrote:If he succeeds, it's extortion. If the current stalemate continues, it's theft of public resources from the public.

Incorrect as "Extortion is a criminal offence whereby an individual obtains money, goods and services, or desired behavior from another by wrongfully threatening or inflicting harm to his person, property, or reputation. [It] involves the victim's consent, but the way in which it is gained is unlawful ... theft is any unauthorized taking of another’s property without their consent with the intent to permanently deprive them of said property."

So while it may be unpopular, the only illegal actions I read about this so far are any who trespass. You don't win at chess by kicking over the board or calling them names; you win by out-playing your opponent.
Not sure if I'll do more 14ers. The trip reports are too tiring. :wink:

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