Kevin Hayne Accident

[tmathews]

I think it's hard to say "Lets call it", "I'm not feeling right about this", even more when you are with someone who is equal or more experienced than you, and even, even more with young men.

+1. I've seen some poor decisions made because something was more "manly" to do. Testosterone is definitely another thing to consider when making the difficult turn-back or continue-on choices. I would rather be pronounced a p**sy than be pronounced DOA....

[PKelley]

Travis -

I sincerely appreciate your response and thank you for taking the time to answer those questions. It helps the community put things in a clearer context that can be more easily learned from. Yours was a tough situation, and I am sorry that you had a front-row seat to the tragedy. I think that there are many lessons to be had from your experience. I hope that others do not judge you or Kevin, but merely learn from what transpired. You are free souls and you make your own choices - don't ever waver in your quest for adventure. I was just trying to flesh out some details in the hopes that people will read about it and think a little harder in the future, a future I hope where history will not repeat itself. I am deeply sorry for your loss and hope that you find peace through time. I will continue to keep you and Kevin's family and friends in my thoughts. Again, thanks for sharing information on a very difficult topic. For what its worth, I would encourage you to keep hiking peaks. I continued to climb after Cameron's death because I felt that quitting climbing would have in some way devalued what climbing was all about for both of us. Keep on keepin' on and keep your chin up.

Best wishes,

Patrick

[highpilgrim]

Lessons to learn from here.

4. Know your limitations.
5. Be ok with turning back.

+1 on that.

When the consequences of a fall are serious injury or death, and the conditions make that fall more likely, respect the mountain, turn back and wait for another day to try again.

Travis, I admire and respect your wilingness to engage in this conversation to the degree you have. I don't think I would have been so willing if the shoe were on my foot. In my mind you have behaved remarkably well for such a young man.

You can be proud of the way you've handled yourself in a situation no one would envy. I wish you well.

[TomPierce]

Travis: I'll echo Pat Kelley's thanks for giving more details about the accident. You've been through hell but taking the time to do so when it's still relatively fresh is invaluable. I respectfully disagree that those who ask for such information are up to no good. I have several "rules" of climbing and really digging into an accident is one of them. It's one of many ways to learn the craft and I strongly believe that some of the information conveyed can save lives. I just don't buy into a fatalistic accidents-just-happen philosophy. Sure, rocks can randomly fall, lightning could strike on a clear day, but learning about the circumstances of an accident may, just may, give others pause in the future at the right moment. Anyway, many thanks and hang in there.
-Tom

PS: Post your climbing schedule when you're up to it and I'll see if I can help with your 14er climbs.

[stlouishiker]

Lessons to learn from here.

5. Be ok with turning back.

+1 again. In New Mexico, I was scrambling around with a more experienced person on a granite peak. There was a 15 inch wide ledge that sloped to a 150 ft. drop off. I followed my partner across it and my boot slipped off towards the drop off. I didn't fall but that scared the s**t out of me. Now I turn back whenever anything is too sketchy for me. I'd rather hike another day than die trying to climb a peak

[susanjoypaul]

It's nice to see such a civil, constructive discussion on this topic. I also believe this was truly an accident. Afterall, no one goes into the mountains with the intention of putting themselves in harm's way.

I also believe there's a lot of good advice in some of these posts, and that sometimes accidents can be avoided with the right precautions.

My first attempt at Little Bear was in September 2006. We arrived at the bottom of the Hourglass just as a couple other guys were coming out. They told us the top was all iced over, so they had turned back without a summit. We were really bummed, but rather than heading back to camp, we attempted an ascent on those cliffs to the left of the couloir. There was a lot of ice and snow between the rocks, but as the sun warmed them they began popping off! I was climbing in front, and stepped on a small ledge. It began to collapse under my foot, so I quickly stepped off it, and stooped to hold it in place. A moment later it let go - and sent a beachball-sized rock careening a hundred feet down the cliff, narrowly missing two of my climbing buddies! That isn't the scary part... the scary part was that I wanted to continue with the climb. My friend Dave pulled the plug, though, and was very firm about it. This was to be his final 14er, by the way, so he had a lot more vested in the climb than I did. Eight months later we went back, and summitted in less than perfect conditions: bad snow and ice. I can look back now and honestly say that I had no business up there either time. I just got lucky.

I've had similar experiences on a few other peaks, and I guess my point is this: we all do dumb sh!t. I've done a whole *lot* of dumb sh!t. Here's what I've learned...

1) If someone in my party wants to turn around, I should turn around. They may have picked up on something that I've missed, or simply chosen to ignore because I'm so focused on the summit.

2) If I want to turn around but my climbing buddy does not, I should open my big mouth and insist on it.

3) The Hourglass is never completely safe, even in the best conditions. In summer when the rock is bone dry and an easy scramble, there's still rockfall and lightning. In winter when the snow's consolidated, there's icefall and avalanches. During the "shoulder seasons" it's filled with verglas, and for the average mountaineer with average mountaineering skills, basically a deathtrap.

4) I don't include technology (SPOT, GPS, or other contraptions), SAR, or the Hand of God in my "disaster recovery plan." I don't have anything against any of them - I just think that if I have to consider relying on them to ensure my safety on a particular climb, I should stay home.

5) I try to be honest with myself about my level of experience and ability, and I'm not too proud to ask for guidance on a climb.

You probably already know all this stuff - I already know all this stuff - but I can guarantee that I'll continue to do dumb sh!t, because I'm human, and that's what we humans do. But by admitting it, and openly discussing it, maybe a little of it will actually sink in and I'll be more likely to follow my own advice.

Travis, you've been tremendously forthcoming and gracious throughout this ordeal. In light of what you've been through, that's a lot to expect from anyone, at any age. Kevin was lucky to call you his friend.

So please take this in the spirit it's intended... not being preachy, or judgmental, or pretending to be any more knowledgable than you are. I'm a mom, with two boys your age, who's lost friends in the mountains and other places, and I feel a responsibility to other moms to speak up when I see their boys making the same mistakes I've made. And when they see my boys out there in the world, doing dumb sh!t, I sure hope they'll return the favor by doing the same for me.

[tommyboy360]

I can look back now and honestly say that I had no business up there either time. I just got lucky.

I've had similar experiences on a few other peaks, and I guess my point is this: we all do dumb sh!t. I've done a whole *lot* of dumb sh!t. Here's what I've learned...

4) I don't include technology (SPOT, GPS, or other contraptions), SAR, or the Hand of God in my "disaster recovery plan." I don't have anything against any of them - I just think that if I have to consider relying on them to ensure my safety on a particular climb, I should stay home.

Dude, this member summed it up for me. I've been there, done that, just like an episode of jackass. I can't explain it. Life = luck. Play hard or just think about the next time you’re driving hwy 285 or Red Mtn Pass and you'll realize YOUR LIFE IS ALWAYS AT RISK. Post/read 14ers.com, hang out at REI, buy every mtn gadget/survival book on Amazon and you could still fall to your death, get struck by lightning or crushed over the falls of an avalanche. I've seen some of my biggest mtn/snow heroes go down recently: Shane McConkey, CR Johsnon... I will not even bring up the past as this is a common outcome for the life of what suburbia calls extreme. Life can suck and sometimes the mtns devour their own.

Seriously, a bit of luck and timing is everything. We can only understand/mitigate risk. I've been in multiple situations where I should have been taken by either an unprotected fall or extreme avalanche risk. Summits/Powder turns will always have their lure and can overcome even the most experienced mountaineer. BUT I love how the mtns inspire life, passion and goals in so many people. There is a thin line here that is diffuclt to balance. I guess respect and balance comes with experience. I totally get all of the lists and why so many people here want to summit all of CO's 14ers. I'm not here to knock anyone because at some level we ALL share the same passion for Colorado 14ers. Get out of suburbia and live life at a higher elevation. There is no prerequisite test, experience level... Just be smart, mentally/physically prepared, surround yourself with a good team, know your limits and DO NOT underestimate mother nature. No list, forum or person can decide that for you. I’ve seen some crazy 1st timers/rookies get away with the stupidest things…

No harm intended here. I'm stoked by the conservation and the celebration of Kevin. Eventually, we will ALL be put to the same life test that Kevin and Travis experienced. I can only hope life will surround me with the same type of community/family/friends when my time comes. RIP Kevin. Best of luck to you, Travis, and keep pushing towards your goal. Don’t sweat it If you have doubters... Work even harder at preparing yourself and get extreme. I say stoke the memory of great friend by climbing all 53 summits. We're working on the same goal so you are welcome to tag a ride with me anytime.

[greenwok]

Perhaps the wisest hiking and climbing counsel on this thread SJP!

KG

It's nice to see such a civil, constructive discussion on this topic. I also believe this was truly an accident. Afterall, no one goes into the mountains with the intention of putting themselves in harm's way.

I also believe there's a lot of good advice in some of these posts, and that sometimes accidents can be avoided with the right precautions.

My first attempt at Little Bear was in September 2006. We arrived at the bottom of the Hourglass just as a couple other guys were coming out. They told us the top was all iced over, so they had turned back without a summit. We were really bummed, but rather than heading back to camp, we attempted an ascent on those cliffs to the left of the couloir. There was a lot of ice and snow between the rocks, but as the sun warmed them they began popping off! I was climbing in front, and stepped on a small ledge. It began to collapse under my foot, so I quickly stepped off it, and stooped to hold it in place. A moment later it let go - and sent a beachball-sized rock careening a hundred feet down the cliff, narrowly missing two of my climbing buddies! That isn't the scary part... the scary part was that I wanted to continue with the climb. My friend Dave pulled the plug, though, and was very firm about it. This was to be his final 14er, by the way, so he had a lot more vested in the climb than I did. Eight months later we went back, and summitted in less than perfect conditions: bad snow and ice. I can look back now and honestly say that I had no business up there either time. I just got lucky.

I've had similar experiences on a few other peaks, and I guess my point is this: we all do dumb sh!t. I've done a whole *lot* of dumb sh!t. Here's what I've learned...

1) If someone in my party wants to turn around, I should turn around. They may have picked up on something that I've missed, or simply chosen to ignore because I'm so focused on the summit.

2) If I want to turn around but my climbing buddy does not, I should open my big mouth and insist on it.

3) The Hourglass is never completely safe, even in the best conditions. In summer when the rock is bone dry and an easy scramble, there's still rockfall and lightning. In winter when the snow's consolidated, there's icefall and avalanches. During the "shoulder seasons" it's filled with verglas, and for the average mountaineer with average mountaineering skills, basically a deathtrap.

4) I don't include technology (SPOT, GPS, or other contraptions), SAR, or the Hand of God in my "disaster recovery plan." I don't have anything against any of them - I just think that if I have to consider relying on them to ensure my safety on a particular climb, I should stay home.

5) I try to be honest with myself about my level of experience and ability, and I'm not too proud to ask for guidance on a climb.

You probably already know all this stuff - I already know all this stuff - but I can guarantee that I'll continue to do dumb sh!t, because I'm human, and that's what we humans do. But by admitting it, and openly discussing it, maybe a little of it will actually sink in and I'll be more likely to follow my own advice.

Travis, you've been tremendously forthcoming and gracious throughout this ordeal. In light of what you've been through, that's a lot to expect from anyone, at any age. Kevin was lucky to call you his friend.

So please take this in the spirit it's intended... not being preachy, or judgmental, or pretending to be any more knowledgable than you are. I'm a mom, with two boys your age, who's lost friends in the mountains and other places, and I feel a responsibility to other moms to speak up when I see their boys making the same mistakes I've made. And when they see my boys out there in the world, doing dumb sh!t, I sure hope they'll return the favor by doing the same for me.

[TomPierce]

I've had similar experiences on a few other peaks, and I guess my point is this: we all do dumb sh!t. I've done a whole *lot* of dumb sh!t. Here's what I've learned...

Although arguably outside the scope of this post, I think Susan's comment begs a new thread, to wit: To those who have logged significant time in the mountains, can you share what hard lessons you have learned? What are your "rules," principles, etc? In other words, to learn from accidents such as that which claimed Kevin's life, any tips, rules of thumb, ideas which could be shared to perhaps spare a life in the future? Just seems like a constructive exercise. Like Pat Kelley, I too have seen death in the mountains and want to do what can be done to limit future losses. Just an idea.

-Tom

[its_not_a_tuba]

I've had similar experiences on a few other peaks, and I guess my point is this: we all do dumb sh!t. I've done a whole *lot* of dumb sh!t. Here's what I've learned...

Although arguably outside the scope of this post, I think Susan's comment begs a new thread, to wit: To those who have logged significant time in the mountains, can you share what hard lessons you have learned? What are your "rules," principles, etc? In other words, to learn from accidents such as that which claimed Kevin's life, any tips, rules of thumb, ideas which could be shared to perhaps spare a life in the future? Just seems like a constructive exercise. Like Pat Kelley, I too have seen death in the mountains and want to do what can be done to limit future losses. Just an idea.

-Tom

For what it is worth I abide faithfully by this order of priorities:

1) Be safe
2) Have fun
3) Get the summit

It may seem over simplified but all too often I have been with parties who had these priorities in the exact reverse order. The principal of being safe maybe obvious, but summit fever can over power your sense of self preservation in those last 500 feet, don't let it. As to having fun, every climber needs to remember that the reason we do this is just for sport... it's a fun sport, but nothing more. The moment it is no longer fun it is time to question why you are there. Kevin and Travis rightfully were being safe when they pulled out of the hourglass to see how the conditions were going to change. But sitting around in a precarious position waiting to see what happens next is not fun. Questioning your decision making when you are no longer having fun is where the rubber meets the road, and it is hard to let go of. We all know when our climbing day is going well and when it isn't. When it is the later, when the mountain is telling you that today is not your day then it is time to pack up and go home. Gaining a summit isn't that important, it's just a checkmark. If for a moment you think it is more than that then you need to reset your priorities. When you're not having a good time, go home, the mountain will be there next time, with better conditions to welcome you.

Best wishes Travis. I've never met you, know little about you, but you are clearly a stand up guy. Having lost a close friend myself I can say that, the feeling of loss never goes away, but it does get easier to deal with over time. Climb on and live your life to the fullest, Kevin would have it no other way.

[Kitten]

It is strange that one of his first actions after the event was to post on a website, this website. He has been extremely active since then on all forums having to do with this topic, and I find those first posts and subsequent posts (namely to immediately request to have other people take him up mountains) to be inconsistent and unsettling, as I already stated. Now, granted, he was probably in shock after everything wound down. But still, to immediately go to the internet to post a sketchy account of the accident? To me this seems very weird, although perhaps I am not close enough to the internet generation to understand. He was very touchy and quick to be upset when someone started asking any questions. Now, if he had never opened the story himself on the forum, I may have some sympathy. However, since he was ever so willing to discuss the accident and his personal desires on the forum, he must understand that he has opened it up for questions on the forum, questions of his actions and his partner's actions. I am sorry that this thread has so devolved that it appears we will never have answers to the questions surrounding the fall.

To me it was weird too... but then again everybody makes their own decisions and there are different ways to handle difficult situations.

4) I don't include technology (SPOT, GPS, or other contraptions), SAR, or the Hand of God in my "disaster recovery plan." I don't have anything against any of them - I just think that if I have to consider relying on them to ensure my safety on a particular climb, I should stay home.

Susan, I totally AGREE with your statement. And I don't think the use of these gadgets has been discussed enough here. I would not want to rely on one of them either...

[Alpinista]

Several folks, notably Patrick and Susanjoypaul have provided some excellent points. Also Travis I'd like to add my thanks for answering Patrick's questions. Like many have said, you did the best job you could have for Kevin after the accident. Also don't beat yourself up on preparation. On most teams, one person does the bulk of the trip planning and research; that's just the way it seems to be. Similarly regarding being roped up. I've been up and down the Hourglass a few times and there's precious little available for reliable rock pro, even if either of you were experienced in placing/evaluating it (and doing this in the mountains, especially one like Little Bear, requires LOTS of technical rock climbing experience). I wish you the best in recovering from this experience and your future climbing endeavors. I have witnessed accidents involving friends and lost friends in the mountains, so I know how hard it is.

That said, I have several bits of advice inspired, in some but not all cases, by this event and by the comments about the event that I offer to the group...

It seems like a common reaction to accidents involving people we know or like (or think we know or like) is to call it a freak accident. The reality of it is that very very few accidents are truly freak accidents about which nothing reasonable could have been done to prevent the outcome. Most often "accidents" result from a series of seemingly inconsequential bad decisions that add up to limit choices/options which eventually funnels the "victim" into a path in which an incident is inevitable. Anyone experienced at accident analysis or investigation, whether in a recreational or industrial setting will confirm this.

"Everyone makes mistakes" is a trite, specious, and useless remark that does no one any good. Experienced practitioners of any risky discipline must learn to *recognize* mistakes and correct them before they add up to an "accident."

This is why critical self-evaluation during and after every single trip is crucial and why experience is so important. After every trip, everyone should reflect on why it went well or poorly. What could have been done in planning, preparation, equipment or decisions that could have made it go better (even if it was a "success"). Also examine what could have gone wrong, how you could avoid those events or plan/prepare for them if they happen. For each decision in the mountains, do the best job you can of considering other options or how this choice might limit your future choices (in this case e.g. the choice to leave crampons in camp cut down at least one possible option later or "forced" a particular course of action). This process is how useful mountain experience is developed.

Preparation in terms of research, equipment carried, etc. is necessary and important, but not sufficient for safety or success in the mountains. Safety and success require skills and experience that are built up over a long time of slowly pushing one's limits and/or though formal training and practice. I still STRONGLY recommend that anyone starting from scratch climb all or most of the "easy" 14ers before even thinking about the harder ones (Elks, Wilsons, LB, Crestones Pk & Needle etc.) This allows you to get the basic mountain skills like weather judgment, macro and micro route-finding, layering, hydration and nutrition, judgment of different types of terrain and rock etc. etc. down as second nature.

If one intends to climb these harder peaks in other than perfect dry-rock conditions, I also recommend getting training and experience in technical rock and/or ice climbing and lots of practice at the rock or ice crag beforehand. Anywhere near the outset of one's career, you should NOT be doing anything in the mountains that isn't substantially easier than anything you've done at the crag or in the front country. Except under extreme duress (imminent risk of life or limb), if you haven't done it at the crag at all, DON'T EVEN THINK about doing it in the mountains (this last sentence probably applies at all levels of alpine climbing from hiking up small peaks to world class technical mixed routes).

Owning gear or even using it once or twice is not the same as knowing how to use it on serious terrain, which is not the same as having the experience/judgment of when to use (and not use) it. Competent instruction and lots of practice in the front-country is essential for any new piece of gear before venturing more than an hour from the road with it.

As has been said, but it bears repeating, always always always be prepared to turn back if conditions aren't what you are prepared for or if something happens that significantly changes the conditions you were expecting and are prepared for. Many very skilled and experienced alpinists turn around all the time if conditions aren't right or if they didn't bring the right gear for the day of if something unexpected/unrecoverable happens (e.g. when Steve House dropped the stove pump on one of the *7* attempts Barry Blanchard made on the Emperor Face of Mt. Robson before succeeding - the eventual route being named "Infinite Patience").

Melting snow/ice are more likely to increase rock fall than improve route conditions, especially if there's lots of loose rock around to begin with.

If you have reservations about how you're feeling, the weather, the condition of the route, a decision that's being made, anything - speak up! If your partner(s) aren't comfortable with this, find new partners who are. Support your partner(s) when they have reservations and listen carefully to what they're saying.

If one person has valid reservations after discussion/analysis, the group turns around. Never talk someone in to doing something they're legitimately not comfortable doing.

First person who wants a rope, gets it - no questions asked. If the group didn't bring a rope, you go down.

Always consider how you're going to get down (especially how you're going to get down if conditions get worse) - especially right before you make that choice that's going to limit your options later on.

Climbing up is HUGELY easier than climbing down - applies to everything except scree.

Get advanced first aid training. 24 hours of Wilderness First Aid *at a minimum*. Much much better to spend the 10 days at a Wilderness First Responder class. (it seems unlikely this would have made a difference in the current incident, but it's very valuable information and skill to have in general).

As SJP has said, but bears repeating: strive, above all else, to be self-sufficient. Don't assume gear or SAR or divine intervention is going to save your butt. To do otherwise is rude at best and may get someone else killed at worst.

Also, as Mark Twight has said, beware of succeeding on a route above your ability, or put more simply, don't confuse luck with skill or experience. This has probably killed more climbers than almost anything else.

Lastly, and here's the bit that's going to get me flamed... As far as I'm concerned, anyone who has close calls or requires rescue, maybe at all, but *certainly* more than once in a year's time is pushing things waaaaay too fast/far/hard, no matter how much they love the mountains or are dedicated climbers or super prepared or pretty much anything else (this also applies at every level from hiking to the Himalaya). I defy anyone to rationally argue otherwise.

OK, one more bit of flame bait: climbing the 14ers, especially in summer conditions, do not an experienced mountaineer make. At best, they are an excellent base for *becoming* an experienced mountaineer. Lots of 14ers in summer, winter, and mixed conditions including technical routes... NOW we're talking!

Remember, no matter how much you love the mountains, they don't give a sh** about you.

I've tried my best to mostly present these as general tips rather than a detailed accident analysis - take from them what you will.