Kevin Hayne Accident

[X++]

Yes! This is probably the best advice post ever, no doubt. Here are two things I'd like to highlight that are especially germane to this thread:

Melting snow/ice are more likely to increase rock fall than improve route conditions, especially if there's lots of loose rock around to begin with.

Yep, waiting around for the ice to melt so that the conditions "improve" is what they were doing. However basic physics/chemistry says that when ice freezes it expands and breaks the rocks apart. However when it thaws, those newly broken rocks become loose and slide down the mountain and potentially onto anyone in their way.

Lastly, and here's the bit that's going to get me flamed... As far as I'm concerned, anyone who has close calls or requires rescue, maybe at all, but *certainly* more than once in a year's time is pushing things waaaaay too fast/far/hard, no matter how much they love the mountains or are dedicated climbers or super prepared or pretty much anything else (this also applies at every level from hiking to the Himalaya). I defy anyone to rationally argue otherwise.

This was the point I was trying to make about Kevin needing SAR in the Bells. He should have learned his lesson and been 9000% more cautious after that. Instead he and his family/church turned it into some religous affirmation. Way too much drinking of the kool-aid if you ask me.

[yosemite98]

Lastly, and here's the bit that's going to get me flamed... As far as I'm concerned, anyone who has close calls or requires rescue, maybe at all, but *certainly* more than once in a year's time is pushing things waaaaay too fast/far/hard, no matter how much they love the mountains or are dedicated climbers or super prepared or pretty much anything else (this also applies at every level from hiking to the Himalaya). I defy anyone to rationally argue otherwise.

Well said Alpinista. I think many of us have been thinking the same thing and just didn't want to go there, but it needs to be discussed. 3 incidents in the mountains (one involving SAR and one tragically fatal) is 3 more than I, and probably most people, have had. Granted, I don't consider myself a "mountaineer", and I certainly don't have any real "expertise", but I've done my fair share of rock climbing using ropes (started over 15 years ago) and free climbed 5.4 routes and below (including climbing Little Bear).

Accidents do happen, but 3 "accidents or close calls" in one year sounds more like bad decisions combined with going beyond one's ability. Unfortunately, several "close calls" seem somewhat common for many who have died from "accidents" in the mountains. There are several cases in the "14er Disasters" book and other mountaineering books.

Sorry if this offends... it wasn't my intent. But I think we should all step back and learn from these incidents, reflect on any close-calls we might have had, and possibly re-think decisions we make in the mountains. I know I've become more cautious and thoughtful in the past 2-3 years due to discussions like this one.

[TheKanes]

Travis,

When sifting through this information-- which is at times very insightful-- disregard those comments that are merely rude. Also, notice when someone just became a member a few days ago, yet is absolutely cold, they probably are just a lurker. While this thread is becoming preachy, try to take away a few lessons but don't beat yourself up. I admire teenagers like yourself and Kevin that are willing to LIVE life. So many teens are stuck behind a computer, only partially taking part in life. Tragic accidents always make people look back and wonder what could-have-been done better. As many people have pointed out, hikers/climbers have all encountered oh s*#@ moments. Sometimes because of poor decision making, other times because of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Either way, keep your zeal for life. Take your time, listen to the mountains, and be safe.

[CHWitte]

X++, You are out line when you say "Instead he and his family/church turned it into some religous affirmation. Way too much drinking of the kool-aid if you ask me." Please try to show a little maturity and respect to people when voicing your opinion.

Thank you to all of those who have given their advice on what we can learn about climbing 14ers. I've enjoyed reading all of it!

[FCSquid]

Instead he and his family/church turned it into some religous affirmation. Way too much drinking of the kool-aid if you ask me.

Dude, do NOT turn this into your own personal religion-bashing session. There's absolutely no place for this in this forum, and is even in poorer taste within the context of this thread and the proximity of this tragedy.

Go back to Huffingtonpost. I'm sure you're missed over there.

[shredthegnar10]

As has been said, but it bears repeating, always always always be prepared to turn back if conditions aren't what you are prepared for or if something happens that significantly changes the conditions you were expecting and are prepared for.

+1
The mountains will always be there (well, not in a few million years, but as far as all of us are concerned, they will )

Get advanced first aid training. 24 hours of Wilderness First Aid *at a minimum*. Much much better to spend the 10 days at a Wilderness First Responder class. (it seems unlikely this would have made a difference in the current incident, but it's very valuable information and skill to have in general).

I'm not saying this is not a good idea, but I think that from what Travis has said about the accident, with the amount of internal injuries Kevin probably suffered from the fall, having a partner with these skills would not have made a difference. At best, one might have been able to make a more medically-informed assessment of Kevin's condition, but he wouldn't have been able to do anything to help him.

Lastly, and here's the bit that's going to get me flamed... As far as I'm concerned, anyone who has close calls or requires rescue, maybe at all, but *certainly* more than once in a year's time is pushing things waaaaay too fast/far/hard, no matter how much they love the mountains or are dedicated climbers or super prepared or pretty much anything else (this also applies at every level from hiking to the Himalaya). I defy anyone to rationally argue otherwise.

I agree on this one as well, but I also have to add some context to it. There's a difference between being in a situation that pushes one out of one's comfort zone and being in a bad situation as a result of poor judgment alone. Being able to do something out of one's comfort zone is part of becoming more experienced as a climber.
I've never been rescued, but I've gotten myself into a few bad situations -- and used what I had to get myself out of them. Part of it was luck, part of it was keeping a clear head in a bad situation, and part of it was knowing how to make use of what I DID have (skills, equipment, knowledge, etc) in place of what I didn't. I never brought these events up on this forum because of the tendency of many people on here to over-analyze things and come up with criticisms made with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight. What is important is that I learned from these situations and will NOT repeat my past mistakes.
Furthermore, I genuinely think that this thread was started with the intent to learn from Kevin and Travis' experience, and to prevent future accidents from occurring in similar situations -- not to criticize them.

[elchivoloco]

Alpinista wrote:
Get advanced first aid training. 24 hours of Wilderness First Aid *at a minimum*. Much much better to spend the 10 days at a Wilderness First Responder class. (it seems unlikely this would have made a difference in the current incident, but it's very valuable information and skill to have in general).

If you want to learn all about the Gamov bag or the pharmacotheraputics of dexamethasone, that's laudable. But what is wilderness first aid, really? It's going down, out of the wilderness and to a hospital. Surgeons, nurses, and paramedics in the wilderness are nice, but are pretty useless without operating rooms, hospitals, and ambulances. There are an abundance of tricks and techniques the layperson can learn and use to treat inconsequential, comfort type, wilderness injuries and illnesses, but for the big time, life-threatening stuff the cirriculum is pretty short. 1) Protect the victim from immediate further harm. (dig them out of the snow, pluck them from the river, or pry them from the bears mouth) 2) Careful with the neck 3) Stop serious bleeding (you don't need bandages or guaze for this, get creative. if in doubt, make it tighter) 4) The recovery position (if they're unconscious, or might be soon, lay them on their side while observing #2)

That's it, really. Oh yeah, and get them to a hospital.

[dude4mountains]

I really appreciate most of this thread. I've been thinking along the same lines ever since this incident and have been really introspective around this tragedy.

I've had a bad feeling about the Hourglass during this particular "season" for many many years ...either new or rotten ice ...or running water ...RED LIGHT.

Spending any more time than absolutely necessary on this route ...RED LIGHT.

Traversing off of this route (known for loose rock and rockfall from above) ...freeking RED LIGHT.

No criticism intended ...but ...lessons to learn.

Be Safe everyone,
Dude

[Alpinista]

Honesty not intended as a criticism of Kevin and Travis or anyone else, but seriously, if I NEVER climb up or down the Hourglass other than on well-consolidated or and/or frozen snow, it will be too soon. I did it once because I didn't have access to advice like I'm giving now and one other time because we climbed the NW Face route and the others in my group weren't up the the Blanca traverse after the face climb - but NEVER again! I can't believe people actually climb that route and/or that many people aren't killed or injured on it every year. There's quite literally TONS of loose rock everywhere above that gully and the gully does a remarkably good job of collecting and concentrating every single little bit of rockfall. I'm a fairly decent rock climber at moderate grades and I just about crapped my pants the last time I had to downclimb that gully (which would be something like 8 or 9 or 10 grades below my max rock climbing ability plus I'm no stranger to hard climbing on loose rock). My recommendation to anyone wanting to summit Little Bear would be to get some technical rock climbing and scrambling experience and climb the NW Face route with a traverse to Blanca for the descent or do it in early spring as a snow climb. Failing that, if you absolutely MUST do the Hourglass, do it on a Tuesday or Wednesday or sometime when you're the only party on the route (and don't use the fixed lines that have been subjected to innumerable rockfall). It's a flippin' death trap.

[Kevo]

Alpinista wrote:
Get advanced first aid training. 24 hours of Wilderness First Aid *at a minimum*. Much much better to spend the 10 days at a Wilderness First Responder class. (it seems unlikely this would have made a difference in the current incident, but it's very valuable information and skill to have in general).

If you want to learn all about the Gamov bag or the pharmacotheraputics of dexamethasone, that's laudable. But what is wilderness first aid, really? It's going down, out of the wilderness and to a hospital. Surgeons, nurses, and paramedics in the wilderness are nice, but are pretty useless without operating rooms, hospitals, and ambulances. There are an abundance of tricks and techniques the layperson can learn and use to treat inconsequential, comfort type, wilderness injuries and illnesses, but for the big time, life-threatening stuff the cirriculum is pretty short. 1) Protect the victim from immediate further harm. (dig them out of the snow, pluck them from the river, or pry them from the bears mouth) 2) Careful with the neck 3) Stop serious bleeding (you don't need bandages or guaze for this, get creative. if in doubt, make it tighter) 4) The recovery position (if they're unconscious, or might be soon, lay them on their side while observing #2)

That's it, really. Oh yeah, and get them to a hospital.

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. While I agree with your 4 points above as being the tenets of wilderness medicine that anyone can understand without taking a coure, there is a bit more technical knowledge that can be gained and more importantly, training/education in wilderness medicine can help you to-

1- identify issues that you might otherwise look past before they become more serious.

and

2- be much more self sufficient and allow you to help yourself, your partners and other people you encounter without the mobilization of lots of SAR and emergency response personnel in many situations.

In the 4 or so years since my first WMI course, I've put it to good use in several situations where I might otherwise have called for help or been powerless to help people when calling was not an option. These situations range from treating a partners severely broken ankle to taking on much more serious life threatening injuries high on a remote peak in the Himalayas where help was not an option, in a location several days and many miles of glacier travel from the nearest village. I'm not even at an EMT level, and in each scenario I was the most qualified person (or the only person) in a position to render aid.

I would highly recommend that anyone who regularly spends time in the backcountry take a WMI course so that they are more self reliant and better prepared. It is much better to be empowered with knowledge and preparedness when confronted with a serious situation, regardless of if you end up needing to call for help.

With that said, I don't think that there is much that could have been done for Kevin in his situation, but there are lots of other times when self extraction is a possibility or the only option for someone who has a serious injury that will not result in immediate death.

[FCSquid]

Honesty not intended as a criticism of Kevin and Travis or anyone else, but seriously, if I NEVER climb up or down the Hourglass other than on well-consolidated or and/or frozen snow, it will be too soon. I did it once because I didn't have access to advice like I'm giving now and one other time because we climbed the NW Face route and the others in my group weren't up the the Blanca traverse after the face climb - but NEVER again! I can't believe people actually climb that route and/or that many people aren't killed or injured on it every year. There's quite literally TONS of loose rock everywhere above that gully and the gully does a remarkably good job of collecting and concentrating every single little bit of rockfall. I'm a fairly decent rock climber at moderate grades and I just about crapped my pants the last time I had to downclimb that gully (which would be something like 8 or 9 or 10 grades below my max rock climbing ability plus I'm no stranger to hard climbing on loose rock). My recommendation to anyone wanting to summit Little Bear would be to get some technical rock climbing and scrambling experience and climb the NW Face route with a traverse to Blanca for the descent or do it in early spring as a snow climb. Failing that, if you absolutely MUST do the Hourglass, do it on a Tuesday or Wednesday or sometime when you're the only party on the route (and don't use the fixed lines that have been subjected to innumerable rockfall). It's a flippin' death trap.

We felt the same way you did about the Hourglass and chose the Southwest ridge with a South LIttle Bear -> Little Bear summit traverse. It was exposed, loose, downright terrifying in spots, but it did keep us out of that gully. There were two climbers descending the gully while we were on the summit ridge - I believe cleaning up the gully from the accident. They were in the Hourglass the entire time we were above them and still there while we were on the way down the ridge. We were incredibly nervous just being above those guys with all the loose rock near the summit and the summit notch, and I'm just glad that the only rocks we knocked loose went down the Blanca Basin side, and not to the west.

[tmathews]

We felt the same way you did about the Hourglass and chose the Southwest ridge with a South LIttle Bear -> Little Bear summit traverse. It was exposed, loose, downright terrifying in spots, but it did keep us out of that gully. There were two climbers descending the gully while we were on the summit ridge - I believe cleaning up the gully from the accident. They were in the Hourglass the entire time we were above them and still there while we were on the way down the ridge. We were incredibly nervous just being above those guys with all the loose rock near the summit and the summit notch, and I'm just glad that the only rocks we knocked loose went down the Blanca Basin side, and not to the west.

Actually, I think they were just climbing, not cleaning up anything. I got an email from Travis saying that they contacted him because they found Kevin's ice axe.