Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Threads related to Colorado mountaineering accidents but please keep it civil and respectful. Friends and relatives of fallen climbers will be reading these posts.
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GeezerClimber
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by GeezerClimber »

usfgal wrote:I plan to revisit them and put together something for this forum that includes both highlights and mistakes we made, and I hope that can help people who are new or have questions about a particular peak or weakness that they are dealing with. I think there is a lot to be gained from people's personal accounts, regardless of how they end, but tragedies and my own emotional memory of times I actually wondered if I was going to die probably are the most powerful reminders of the importance of safety and taking good care in the mountains (for me).
Perhaps you have stumbled on a great idea for a sub forum. "Mistakes I've made and lived to tell about." Some people have posted close calls and I've sometimes learned from them. Who among us who have climbed quite a few have not found themselves in a scary situation? There is a saying that experts are merely people who survived their mistakes. What does everyone else think?

Dave
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CarpeDM
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by CarpeDM »

ameristrat wrote:If we truly believe a discussion is required on risk mitigation, then let's remove the context of a climber's death. It doesn't do anything to aid the discussion or education.
I'm reading more of the thread now, and while I agree with some of what ameristrat has said, I don't agree with this and similar statements.

Context is critical! Yes, it's easy to pick up FOTH, and that's where you actually learn how to self arrest. But having an example that grabs someone by the collar and shows them that this happens to real people is often very important for making them understand why they need to read FOTH.

Perhaps ameristrat was simply referring to anonymizing an account - in which case, of course, names should be removed and some details smudged out where family & partners do not consent.
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summit2sea
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by summit2sea »

So I have sat on the sidelines on this for a while. I normally do unless there is something I might add that can be helpful. Maybe a slight different point of view. Over the past decade I flew very fast, very maneuverable jets. Sometimes these jets would become not so fast and not so maneuverable which can often lead to deadly consequences. I have had several friends get out of those situations with a few bruises and a few who didn't make it at all. Regardless of these outcomes, we (our community) would always review what led up to the incident. Sometimes it's pilot error, sometimes it's an act of God. The worst is what we call the Swiss Cheese effect, where numerous small mistakes all compounded on each other to make one big mistake, all the holes in the cheese lining up to make one continuous hole...it's an analogy, just go with it. Obviously the purpose of this is to learn from, and prevent, future occurrences. Sometimes this might just be in the form of recognizing when you yourself are getting into a progressively worse situation, before all those holes line up. It can sometimes be painful, especially when you hear that your buddy screwed up and paid for it with his or her life, but how else do we learn how to avoid that same screw up the next time we strap into a jet?

So how do I apply the above to this forum? I can compare climbing and mountaineering to flying, both are inherently dangerous at times. A lack of judgement, a distraction, or even a act of nature can greatly endanger you or others in a blink of an eye. We can't prevent natural acts, we can learn from those types of accidents as far as knowing what to look for, but that's about it. The other cases though, we can learn from, and apply in our next venture out into our beloved mountains.

I tend to think that an open discussion of lessons learned, analysis of accidents that doesn't stray into speculation or finger pointing can be a good thing. I think Ryan Marsters' (monster5) write up on the accident on Snowmass two years ago is a phenomenal piece, written by a first hand account of what happened and, more importantly, what was done in response to the accident. The key to this however is that it was written when some time had passed, enough to let the immediate feelings of the accident pass over, but soon enough that analysis and memories hadn't been changed by time. The condolences thread, is not the time and place to do it. Another thread, which has been proposed, would give an opportunity for those who wish to learn from those that came before to do so.

People come to this site to become more informed on this passion of ours. To learn what route to take, what gear to bring, what super rigged 4x4 will you need to get up to Lake Como. Is the analysis of these accidents not another form of learning? I don't know, my 2 cents.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by Kodachrome »

summit2sea wrote:Regardless of these outcomes, we (our community) would always review what led up to the incident.
Are your community reviews publicly visible to 2.7+ million "visitors" annually and subject to be found by friends or family of the missing, maimed or deceased via Google search?
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by summit2sea »

As a matter of fact yes, eventually they are. http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/repo ... ation.html
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by rijaca »

summit2sea wrote:As a matter of fact yes, eventually they are. http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/repo ... ation.html
And written by professional investigators after a thorough investigation of the circumstances.... (and posted months after the accident occurred).
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by summit2sea »

I agree completely. Have you read Ryan Marsters' (monster5), report? Months after the accident, written by someone who was there. He's not a professional (I don't think) but it is an outstanding analysis of the events that occurred on Snowmass.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by Tim A »

One can hardly compare the investigation of an airplane crash with that of a mountaineering incident. Unless the person in the accident is wearing some kind of neural 'black-box' which records data from all of their muscle strands, we'll never know what happened.

I don't think anyone is against accident analysis as a whole. When a 'primary source' to an incident feels compelled to share their experience, we all stand to benefit. The issue many people (myself included) take is when individuals who were not present either begin fishing for details or making up detailed scenarios themselves, as if not talking about it somehow puts us more at risk in the mountains than before the incident.

This whole push for creating a private forum for accident discussions just doesn't have any merit as far as real safety is concerned. The only people who have anything real to contribute are those people who were present, and if and when they are ready to share their experiences in an anonymous online format, I imagine it will be long after the 'recency effect' has worn off and discussions on a particular incident (all conjecture up to that point) have since faded.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by BillMiddlebrook »

After reading all of the posts and taking some time to think about it, I'd like feedback on adding a 2nd accident-related forum section specifically for analysis+discussion and hide it from the 14ers.com home page thread list. Additionally, I could rename the current section so it's clear there's a section for reporting accidents and different one for analysis:

- Climbing Accidents: Memorial
- Climbing Accidents: Analysis and Discussion


Having that second section hidden from the home page would help keep some of the spotlight off the discussions. Moderators could keep an eye on them to make sure the posts are appropriate for the specific section and move threads/posts as necessary. I would also post some clear, blunt instructions on what is appropriate (and not) in each section and remind people that friends and family read the threads. Of course, not every accident needs much analysis so threads won't be automatically be created in there just because there's an accident.

Accident threads usually start with a post made in the 14ers section or somewhere else but we (moderators) will continue to move them to one of the Climbing Accident sections when it's appropriate.

I agree that there's benefit in civil, thoughtful discussion but, like many, I care most about family and friends of those involved in accidents. Since our forum is focused on Colorado mountaineering, I think most people here aren't just posting to cause trouble but sometimes tempers flare and the best we can do is try to keep things on track and apply some moderation when necessary. This is not the CNN.com comment section so it's not like we have to worry about every single thread deteriorating into political rants and name-calling.

Thoughts?
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by Hungry Jack »

Sounds like a good plan. I would appreciate the accident analysis discussions, and I think this group is quite capable of being civil.
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by BKS »

Again, wise mature response that keeps making this site evem better
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Re: Deaths, Accidents and Analysis

Post by mattpayne11 »

I think this is an amazing response, thank you Bill.
BillMiddlebrook wrote:After reading all of the posts and taking some time to think about it, I'd like feedback on adding a 2nd accident-related forum section specifically for analysis+discussion and hide it from the 14ers.com home page thread list. Additionally, I could rename the current section so it's clear there's a section for reporting accidents and different one for analysis:

- Climbing Accidents: Memorial
- Climbing Accidents: Analysis and Discussion


Having that second section hidden from the home page would help keep some of the spotlight off the discussions. Moderators could keep an eye on them to make sure the posts are appropriate for the specific section and move threads/posts as necessary. I would also post some clear, blunt instructions on what is appropriate (and not) in each section and remind people that friends and family read the threads. Of course, not every accident needs much analysis so threads won't be automatically be created in there just because there's an accident.

Accident threads usually start with a post made in the 14ers section or somewhere else but we (moderators) will continue to move them to one of the Climbing Accident sections when it's appropriate.

I agree that there's benefit in civil, thoughtful discussion but, like many, I care most about family and friends of those involved in accidents. Since our forum is focused on Colorado mountaineering, I think most people here aren't just posting to cause trouble but sometimes tempers flare and the best we can do is try to keep things on track and apply some moderation when necessary. This is not the CNN.com comment section so it's not like we have to worry about every single thread deteriorating into political rants and name-calling.

Thoughts?
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