Lightning Strike on Mt Bierstadt

[SkaredShtles]

Speaking of myths... Standing on a summit with an iron will matter (or rather doing so wherever it's about to strike) as far as I'm concerned. Lightning rods work for a reason.

Just out of curiosity - what makes you think that lightning rods work?

[mtree]

Speaking of myths... Standing on a summit with an iron will matter (or rather doing so wherever it's about to strike) as far as I'm concerned. Lightning rods work for a reason.

Actually, that's another myth. Although in theory that sounds great, there isn't any evidence to support the claim that lightning rods actually work. Holding a 3 iron (although I prefer the 9 iron) won't matter in the scheme of things. You being the tallest object won't either...and there are probably countless boulders taller than you anyway. Go ahead and try it out! You'll see.

Air is pretty resistive. Other things are not, including you, so you definitely don't want to be the tallest thing in the area because it increases the odds that the ground streamer can focus on/go up you - and that iron is going to help with that. That is the primary reason for the crouch, not injury from fall, but being as small a target as possible. You also don't want to lay down for the same reason as you want your legs/heels together - if something hits nearby and you get a ground current, it's more likely to go up one foot and back down the other than pass through vitals as it could if you were in full ground contact. No, nothing is going to help you if you actually become the strike link directly, but the idea is to minimize chances of that happening.

The tallest object is not necessarily where the lightning strikes. There a billions of photos out there to support this. And who came up with the crouch?! More pseudo scientific bunk. The human body is not wired like a chandelier. Again, your size relative to a lightning bolt is insignificant. And whether you're lying flat on the ground, holding a Natarajasana pose, dancing the jig, or running like the wind, none of this will matter either. I think the inherent fear of an impending strike makes most people feel safer if they're crunched up in a ball and praying for momma to make it all better.

Sure, if you happen to be in a charged zone you're definitely in trouble. Been there, done that! But that zone has nothing to do with you or your gear. Most strikes are not direct, but from ground strikes nearby where the electricity moves along the ground due to voltage gradients. If you're in the vicinity of one of these you have a much higher probability of catching the volts. That's probably why 8 folks were hit and not 1.

If you think about it, in theory, the best advice would be to hop. Tiring, but least you'll spend some time with no ground connection. That might truly decrease the odds you'll be caught in a ground current. I propose this be the official lightning survival technique endorsed by 14ers.com. C'mon, everyone get on board!

[AlexeyD]

Although in theory that sounds great, there isn't any evidence to support the claim that lightning rods actually work.

What? Of course they work! If you create a low-impedance path with a ground connection through a building, current will preferentially follow that path. And yes, a mountaintop is more likely to be struck by lightning than a location lower down, for the simple reason of it being (on average) closer to the clouds. Simply put: lightning rods work because of Ohm's Law, and summits are more likely to be hit by lightning than valleys because of Coulomb's Law. E&M 101 stuff, man...

[crossfitter]

Speaking of myths... Standing on a summit with an iron will matter (or rather doing so wherever it's about to strike) as far as I'm concerned. Lightning rods work for a reason.

Actually, that's another myth. Although in theory that sounds great, there isn't any evidence to support the claim that lightning rods actually work. Holding a 3 iron (although I prefer the 9 iron) won't matter in the scheme of things. You being the tallest object won't either...and there are probably countless boulders taller than you anyway. Go ahead and try it out! You'll see.

http://what-if.xkcd.com/16/

It's more of a half-truth than an outright myth. Lightning has enough voltage to arc through several kilometers of air, so you're right that your individual height or boulders around you is relatively insignificant across that scale. However, take a look at this awesome video. As lightning starts to form, it "jumps" in ~50m increments in essentially a random walk. Eventually it "feels" the electric field from a ground-initiated step-leader and that's when the arc discharge occurs. The important thing to note is that step-leaders only extend a couple hundred feet into the air, so at that scale being near taller objects starts to become significant. Lightning rods "work" because they allow electric charges to collect at a point, inducing a stronger electric field to form a more attractive step-leader. It's still fundamentally a random process and there's nothing stopping lightning from hitting pretty much anywhere, but the odds of a strike are not equal at all points. Being down in a valley surrounded by nearby high ridges is certainly a better situation than being on the ridge. As some anecdotal evidence, take a close look at the memorial plaque on challenger, you'll notice several spots that have been clearly hit by lightning - clearly a much higher strike density on that 6x6" square of metal than anywhere else in the nearby area.

In regards to the safety discussion, I think the best bet is to move quickly but calmly down to lower terrain. You're more likely to get hurt from a fall, but standing out in the open isn't exactly a safe situation either. The one real big risk of moving on technical terrain is that if you do get hit by a ground current, that would very likely cause you to fall. If you have to move through a long stretch of no-fall terrain, hunkering down and rolling the dice might be a better option. I would also definitely untie from a rope if you were using one, as wet ropes are decent conductors of electricity. If any ground currents get near the rope, you have a good chance of having some of that current heading your way, so being attached to the rope basically makes you a much bigger target than if you were standing by yourself.

[mtree]

Although in theory that sounds great, there isn't any evidence to support the claim that lightning rods actually work.

What? Of course they work! If you create a low-impedance path with a ground connection through a building, current will preferentially follow that path. E&M 101 stuff.

In theory. But that means the lightning would preferentially strike the rod statistically more often than not. And there is no evidence to support this claim. Check the research. (Although I'm sure manufacturers have concocted something to support their claim, independent research refutes it.) Lab research doesn't always translate to the real world. Too many variables.

[mtree]

Being down in a valley surrounded by nearby high ridges is certainly a better situation than being on the ridge. As some anecdotal evidence, take a close look at the memorial plaque on challenger, you'll notice several spots that have been clearly hit by lightning - clearly a much higher strike density on that 6x6" square of metal than anywhere else in the nearby area.

This I would agree with, but my reasoning is the ridge or peaks themselves become statistically significant to the lightning bolt itself. Not the person. So, it would seem reasonable to assume there would be a higher density of lightning strikes on the ridges or peaks than in the valley. Add to that the unstable air mass moving over the mountain and resulting storm buildup and I would prefer to hop to the valley below. However, I don't have any real hard evidence to support my reasoning. It's just my gut feeling.

[AlexeyD]

But that means the lightning would preferentially strike the rod statistically more often than not.

Nope, that doesn't matter. If you consider the entire building as the conductive path, the distribution of current in that path will still follow Ohm's law. V=IR, and your V is pretty much constant, so the higher the R, the lower the I. Physics, brah

[Conor]

Someone should create a mobile Faraday cage which can be lugged to the top of the mountain. That's something that works in theory and practice. Then we wouldn't have to have these conversations.

[mtree]

But that means the lightning would preferentially strike the rod statistically more often than not.

Nope, that doesn't matter. If you consider the entire building as the conductive path, the distribution of current in that path will still follow Ohm's law. V=IR, and your V is pretty much constant, so the higher the R, the lower the I. Physics, brah

Ahhh, such a lab rat. Seems so simple, but its not. That's not the theory behind how a lightning rod works. Lightning happens when a really huge negative charge builds up in the ground, corresponding to a positive charge overhead, and the differential becomes sufficient to jump the gap and, as others are pointing out, air is an excellent insulator, so it takes a huge voltage differential to make the arc.

A lightning rod doesn't exist to provide a spot for the lightning to strike (skip Ohm's law). Rather, it exists to dissipate the charge so that the strike never happens at all. This comes from early experiments with the Leyden jar; if a pointed metal rod was attached to the jar, it wouldn't charge. The electrons are able to leap off a pointed tip, and into the air, dissipating charge as fast as it accumulates. The lightning rod does the same thing, on a larger scale; it spits out electrons into the air like crazy, so that the charge won't build up sufficiently, and the lightning never hits at all. Based on this, you'd be wise to carry that 9 iron!

But, Mother Nature throws too many variables to allow for any real scientific research to support a lightning rod actually works. So, alas, on such a grand scale, the lightning rod, you as a hiker, and the 9 iron are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Regretfully, I have some fried electronics to prove it.

[AlexeyD]

Ahhh, such a lab rat.

Not really...at least not that kind. Just an engineer who still remembers some of the basics

That's not the theory behind how a lightning rod works.

I don't know what the "theory" is, but that's definitely how it works in reality!

Lightning happens when a really huge negative charge builds up in the ground, corresponding to a positive charge overhead, and the differential becomes sufficient to jump the gap and, as others are pointing out, air is an excellent insulator, so it takes a huge voltage differential to make the arc.

Correct. However, once the arc happens, the current path through whatever it follows still behaves as I described.

A lightning rod doesn't exist to provide a spot for the lightning to strike (skip Ohm's law). Rather, it exists to dissipate the charge so that the strike never happens at all. This comes from early experiments with the Leyden jar; if a pointed metal rod was attached to the jar, it wouldn't charge. The electrons are able to leap off a pointed tip, and into the air, dissipating charge as fast as it accumulates. The lightning rod does the same thing, on a larger scale; it spits out electrons into the air like crazy, so that the charge won't build up sufficiently, and the lightning never hits at all. Based on this, you'd be wise to carry that 9 iron!

I will not argue about the original theory behind lightning rods, as I really don't know all that much about it. But as far as skipping Ohm's law, sorry, no can do! This isn't the Supreme Court, we can't just change laws of physics at will Anyhow, what you're saying about charge dissipation makes sense (sort of), but, in the event that it doesn't work and the strike still happens, the rod WILL provide a conductive path - no way around it (pun intended)!

But, Mother Nature throws too many variables to allow for any real scientific research to support a lightning rod actually works. So, alas, on such a grand scale, the lightning rod, you as a hiker, and the 9 iron are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Regretfully, I have some fried electronics to prove it.

Really? When is the last time you heard of any building being destroyed by a lightning strike? And yet thousands of them take place in densely-populated areas every month. As far as measures a hiker can take, though, I agree - but that's a separate subject. Anyway...this is really getting off-topic and I don't wish to take it farther in that direction; I just couldn't help but respond to a blanket statement like "lightning rods don't work" which (no offense) seems simply to contradict basic principles of electro-magnetic theory.

[dpage]

Ahhh, such a lab rat.

Not really...at least not that kind. Just an engineer who still remembers some of the basics

That's not the theory behind how a lightning rod works.

I don't know what the "theory" is, but that's definitely how it works in reality!

Lightning happens when a really huge negative charge builds up in the ground, corresponding to a positive charge overhead, and the differential becomes sufficient to jump the gap and, as others are pointing out, air is an excellent insulator, so it takes a huge voltage differential to make the arc.

Correct. However, once the arc happens, the current path through whatever it follows still behaves as I described.

A lightning rod doesn't exist to provide a spot for the lightning to strike (skip Ohm's law). Rather, it exists to dissipate the charge so that the strike never happens at all. This comes from early experiments with the Leyden jar; if a pointed metal rod was attached to the jar, it wouldn't charge. The electrons are able to leap off a pointed tip, and into the air, dissipating charge as fast as it accumulates. The lightning rod does the same thing, on a larger scale; it spits out electrons into the air like crazy, so that the charge won't build up sufficiently, and the lightning never hits at all. Based on this, you'd be wise to carry that 9 iron!

I will not argue about the original theory behind lightning rods, as I really don't know all that much about it. But as far as skipping Ohm's law, sorry, no can do! This isn't the Supreme Court, we can't just change laws of physics at will Anyhow, what you're saying about charge dissipation makes sense (sort of), but, in the event that it doesn't work and the strike still happens, the rod WILL provide a conductive path - no way around it (pun intended)!

But, Mother Nature throws too many variables to allow for any real scientific research to support a lightning rod actually works. So, alas, on such a grand scale, the lightning rod, you as a hiker, and the 9 iron are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Regretfully, I have some fried electronics to prove it.

Really? When is the last time you heard of any building being destroyed by a lightning strike? And yet thousands of them take place in densely-populated areas every month. As far as measures a hiker can take, though, I agree - but that's a separate subject. Anyway...this is really getting off-topic and I don't wish to take it farther in that direction; I just couldn't help but respond to a blanket statement like "lightning rods don't work" which (no offense) seems simply to contradict basic principles of electro-magnetic theory.

http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2 ... /29449987/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[AlexeyD]

Ahhh, such a lab rat.

Not really...at least not that kind. Just an engineer who still remembers some of the basics

That's not the theory behind how a lightning rod works.

I don't know what the "theory" is, but that's definitely how it works in reality!

Lightning happens when a really huge negative charge builds up in the ground, corresponding to a positive charge overhead, and the differential becomes sufficient to jump the gap and, as others are pointing out, air is an excellent insulator, so it takes a huge voltage differential to make the arc.

Correct. However, once the arc happens, the current path through whatever it follows still behaves as I described.

A lightning rod doesn't exist to provide a spot for the lightning to strike (skip Ohm's law). Rather, it exists to dissipate the charge so that the strike never happens at all. This comes from early experiments with the Leyden jar; if a pointed metal rod was attached to the jar, it wouldn't charge. The electrons are able to leap off a pointed tip, and into the air, dissipating charge as fast as it accumulates. The lightning rod does the same thing, on a larger scale; it spits out electrons into the air like crazy, so that the charge won't build up sufficiently, and the lightning never hits at all. Based on this, you'd be wise to carry that 9 iron!

I will not argue about the original theory behind lightning rods, as I really don't know all that much about it. But as far as skipping Ohm's law, sorry, no can do! This isn't the Supreme Court, we can't just change laws of physics at will Anyhow, what you're saying about charge dissipation makes sense (sort of), but, in the event that it doesn't work and the strike still happens, the rod WILL provide a conductive path - no way around it (pun intended)!

But, Mother Nature throws too many variables to allow for any real scientific research to support a lightning rod actually works. So, alas, on such a grand scale, the lightning rod, you as a hiker, and the 9 iron are insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Regretfully, I have some fried electronics to prove it.

Really? When is the last time you heard of any building being destroyed by a lightning strike? And yet thousands of them take place in densely-populated areas every month. As far as measures a hiker can take, though, I agree - but that's a separate subject. Anyway...this is really getting off-topic and I don't wish to take it farther in that direction; I just couldn't help but respond to a blanket statement like "lightning rods don't work" which (no offense) seems simply to contradict basic principles of electro-magnetic theory.

http://www.9news.com/story/news/local/2 ... /29449987/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, not all houses have lightning rods...

Anyway...to clarify: I'm not saying that a lightning rod works ALWAYS, or always makes it safer. I'm saying that the statement that a lightning rod DOES NOT work is scientifically unsound...it's based on a pretty simple principle, and, as long as it's properly installed and insulated, then yes, it should work.