Rescue Underway on Longs Peak

[jrs1965]

I'm sort of amazed the military can train in Wilderness, let alone also in a National Park, let alone the most obvious and well-known part of that National Park.

Federal land, training on private property ended when we kicked the British out...

[lkk8815]

^They go where they want. I've been buzzed by fighter jets on mountains in two different Wilderness areas. Ha! I'm not sure if they are supposed to be there but no complaints from me.

There's designated areas where we can land, altitude restrictions over wilderness areas and mountainous terrain, at least for Army. I can't speak for jets.

Army training isn't go time all the time so yes units will sometimes do other physical activities during the work day. Don't worry they more than make up for "fun on the tax payers dime" over deployments or even just weeks-months long field training. My guys went to Denny's yesterday during "physical training". It builds the team.

Lastly, real world rescue missions are invaluable in actually training aircraft crews. So if military crews are used on an SAR mission, everyone wins.

[elhombre]

Well, I hope the US DoD is paying for the rescue and not the NPS and/or CORSAR.

Nice!

Was told by a ranger in the Grand Canyon, if the NPS copter comes down and drags you out, there is no fee. If you are dragged out by NPS and then get on a transport medivac to Flagstaff, it's $30,000.

When the summer questions about altitude sickness come roaring back, this story should be quite illustrative on how unpredictable Altitude Sickness can be. Physical fitness level isn't a good predictor in avoiding getting sick.

[tobiasfunke]

I'm sort of amazed the military can train in Wilderness, let alone also in a National Park, let alone the most obvious and well-known part of that National Park.

Federal land, training on private property ended when we kicked the British out...

That's missing the point. Nobody was saying they should train on private property. The NPS in particular has a dual mandate that does not include making it available for military exercise. Through the National Park Service Act (1916), Congress authorized the National Park Service "to promote and regulate the use of the Federal areas known as national parks, monuments, and reservations…by such means and measures as conform to the fundamental purpose to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wildlife therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations."

BLM or NFS seem far more appropriate for training.

[spiderman]

I didn't mean to suggest that this mission wasn't real training. It is and I'm sure vital to their skill building.

I do wonder why they didn't just rap down the North Face and get the fudge outta Dodge. Seems like that would've been easier than waiting for a helicopter.

Special Forces have so many skills to master and self-rescue under those circumstances apparently was beyond the skillset of this group. I would assume that most of them grew up in states without mountains and didn't get introduced to rock climbing until they had military classes. These are not mountaineers; their main jobs are being soldiers (darn good ones). You have many abilities that are beyond their capabilities. They have so many things to learn that it is difficult to become an expert in all categories. Others will be better sharp shooters, runners, climbers, navigators, drivers, swimmers, explosive experts, mechanics, negotiators, medics, etc. Nevertheless, these soldiers have a great combination of talents and don't get paid that much money for all of the hell/danger that they must face. Throw in the fact that their ultimate bosses are the voters, people who couldn't recognize the United States on an unlabeled globe, and they have an incredibly difficult job. Like all situations, there likely were mistakes made and other solutions that might have been easier. Everyone made it out safely so they successfully handled the situation.

Tobias: you have it completely backwards. We created the NPS so that the BLM and NF lands can be preserved in a more pristine condition.

[tobiasfunke]

I didn't mean to suggest that this mission wasn't real training. It is and I'm sure vital to their skill building.

I do wonder why they didn't just rap down the North Face and get the fudge outta Dodge. Seems like that would've been easier than waiting for a helicopter.

Special Forces have so many skills to master and self-rescue under those circumstances apparently was beyond the skillset of this group. I would assume that most of them grew up in states without mountains and didn't get introduced to rock climbing until they had military classes. These are not mountaineers; their main jobs are being soldiers (darn good ones). You have many abilities that are beyond their capabilities. They have so many things to learn that it is difficult to become an expert in all categories. Others will be better sharp shooters, runners, climbers, navigators, drivers, swimmers, explosive experts, mechanics, negotiators, medics, etc. Nevertheless, these soldiers have a great combination of talents and don't get paid that much money for all of the hell/danger that they must face. Throw in the fact that their ultimate bosses are the voters, people who couldn't recognize the United States on an unlabeled globe, and they have an incredibly difficult job. Like all situations, there likely were mistakes made and other solutions that might have been easier. Everyone made it out safely so they successfully handled the situation.

Tobias: you have it completely backwards. We created the NPS so that the BLM and NF lands can be preserved in a more pristine condition.

Source?

[spiderman]

Have you ever seen a long line of tourist buses in BLM land? Have you ever seen a row of souvenir shops in a NF? Have you noticed that our most beautiful locations don't have a paved sidewalk, along with plaques labeling everything you go past? The National Park system concentrates the visitors into a narrow area that rapidly loses most of its natural/pristine charm. Many American and international tourists love the NPS system. The 307 million visitors each year is a blessing for the economies around the parks, but doesn't do much good for the natural wonders.

I personally am glad that they floc to those locations instead of the BLM/NF/Wilderness areas that are my personal preference. I thought that Wetterhorn was 10x the beauty of Longs primarily because of the solitude. I am willing to sacrifice three of our beloved 14ers in order to save a bit of quiet for the rest of the peaks. Adding in a group of 10 special forces guys on Longs has minimal impact to other climbers' experience as having training sessions on peaks like McDonald, Snowshoe, Crazy, or other remote Montana mountains (not that I would soldiers when they do decide to head off on hikes/training into the most remote wilderness areas).

[jrs1965]

I'm sort of amazed the military can train in Wilderness, let alone also in a National Park, let alone the most obvious and well-known part of that National Park.

Federal land, training on private property ended when we kicked the British out...

That's missing the point. Nobody was saying they should train on private property. The NPS in particular has a dual mandate that does not include making it available for military exercise. Through the National Park Service Act (1916), Congress authorized the National Park Service "to promote and regulate the use of the Federal areas known as national parks, monuments, and reservations…by such means and measures as conform to the fundamental purpose to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wildlife therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations."

BLM or NFS seem far more appropriate for training.

I'm sure there are just as many Executive Orders, DoD, NPS, and an alphabet soup of agencies, directives, agreements, regulations, etc saying that "select" DoD personnel are authorized to train in National Parks. I see your point in that you're assuming that since it's a DoD entity that "the enjoyment of future generations" is being impeded. What do you think HAATS is...and where do they train? Oh, and HAATS rescue dozens of hikers within Colorado every year at no direct cost to any of the local SAR units. Additionally, fires and floods, massive DoD support to Colorado...

I didn't mean to suggest that this mission wasn't real training. It is and I'm sure vital to their skill building.

I do wonder why they didn't just rap down the North Face and get the fudge outta Dodge. Seems like that would've been easier than waiting for a helicopter.

Special Forces have so many skills to master and self-rescue under those circumstances apparently was beyond the skillset of this group. I would assume that most of them grew up in states without mountains and didn't get introduced to rock climbing until they had military classes. These are not mountaineers; their main jobs are being soldiers (darn good ones). You have many abilities that are beyond their capabilities. They have so many things to learn that it is difficult to become an expert in all categories. Others will be better sharp shooters, runners, climbers, navigators, drivers, swimmers, explosive experts, mechanics, negotiators, medics, etc. Nevertheless, these soldiers have a great combination of talents and don't get paid that much money for all of the hell/danger that they must face. Throw in the fact that their ultimate bosses are the voters, people who couldn't recognize the United States on an unlabeled globe, and they have an incredibly difficult job.

Like all situations, there likely were mistakes made and other solutions that might have been easier. Everyone made it out safely so they successfully handled the situation.

I spoke with a buddy of mine who is active duty SF. According to him this was the cadre from The SWTG (Special Warfare Training Group) Mountain Course and they had a group of students who had all came from SF Groups located outside of Colorado (flat-landers). I'm sure that this was not the students from the mountaineering basic course since that course starts out with a "ground school" which pretty much stays on the front range for like the first month of training. I retired from SF over 11 years ago but at that time the Mountaineering Course started out with the ground school and finished like 3 months later with the students doing lead climbing, rescue systems, an ascent of Rainer with crevasse rescues. Probably more highly trained than a vast majority of folks that have been climbing for years. Also, keeping loosely in touch with the SF community since I've retired the Mountain Course has expanded exponentially and is teaching like a half dozen different basic and advanced courses. Bottom line on what happened from what I know is somebody f'd up really bad here by taking unacclimated guys from low ground to 14,000 feet and I sincerely hope there is a 15-6 or inquiry holding that person accountable. In contrast, it is interesting to see the most physically fit guys getting their butts handed to them by AMS...

[jrs1965]

Have you ever seen a long line of tourist buses in BLM land? Have you ever seen a row of souvenir shops in a NF? Have you noticed that our most beautiful locations don't have a paved sidewalk, along with plaques labeling everything you go past? The National Park system concentrates the visitors into a narrow area that rapidly loses most of its natural/pristine charm. Many American and international tourists love the NPS system. The 307 million visitors each year is a blessing for the economies around the parks, but doesn't do much good for the natural wonders.

I personally am glad that they floc to those locations instead of the BLM/NF/Wilderness areas that are my personal preference. I thought that Wetterhorn was 10x the beauty of Longs primarily because of the solitude. I am willing to sacrifice three of our beloved 14ers in order to save a bit of quiet for the rest of the peaks. Adding in a group of 10 special forces guys on Longs has minimal impact to other climbers' experience as having training sessions on peaks like McDonald, Snowshoe, Crazy, or other remote Montana mountains (not that I would soldiers when they do decide to head off on hikes/training into the most remote wilderness areas).

I've always said Estes Park is the Myrtle Beach of the Rockies...

[alpha]

I think there is an important point here that no one has touched on.
Do NOT continue upward ("self rescue" or otherwise) if people have HAPE or HACE.

If members of the party were suffering that bad, everyone is lucky that no one died as the group continued on to the submit.

This should be the teachable moment for everyone. Glad it worked out okay for the soldiers on this occasion.

[Urban Snowshoer]

I think there is an important point here that no one has touched on.
Do NOT continue upward ("self rescue" or otherwise) if people have HAPE or HACE.

If members of the party were suffering that bad, everyone is lucky that no one died as the group continued on to the submit.

This should be the teachable moment for everyone. Glad it worked out okay for the soldiers on this occasion.

Outside of Alaska, cases of HAPE and HACE are extremely rare in the United States.

Is there any evidence someone was afflicted with either of these on Long's--unless there is something I'm missing the articles I've read say "altitude sickeness" without going into details. With further detail, it could have been Acute Mountain Sickness.

[alpha]

It's "only AMS" until it isn't.

There is a rather detailed and rather sad story on summitpost of someone dying on Mt Shasta right around 14,000 ft.

Fatal consequences, even if rare, shouldn't be shrugged off in my opinion.

For anyone that isn't aware of the event I'm talking about, here is the link:
http://www.summitpost.org/against-all-h ... sta/626323" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;