Approach Shoes for Capitol Peak?

[ORION]

Great thread! I'm always stressing about the pros and cons of my approach shoes before a hike/climb. Thanks for the info.

[AyeYo]

I have a somewhat unhealthy obsession with climbing shoes and approach shoes, so I just can't stay away from any thread that talks about approach shoes. But I'll be quick to say that you don't necessarily NEED approach shoes. When "approach shoes" first appeared on the market, I actually thought they were very gimmicky and turned my nose up at them. I figure I can do anything in my hiking shoes that I can do in "approach shoes", and that is still true now. However, approach shoes designed with climbing and scrambling in mind do climb better than hiking shoes. The tight toe box, the down-to-the-toe laces, the sticky rubber, and the tread pattern on the soles all make a difference. However, the climbing ability of an approach shoe usually comes at the sacrifice of its hiking comfort. The features that make a pair of shoes climb well is often exactly the opposite of what you'd want in a pair of hiking shoes. Tight toe box: great for climbing, but not so good for hiking long distances. Sticky rubber: good for climbing, but as others pointed out, they wear out much faster than rubber on hiking shoes, and they tend to get stiff and "glassy" when the temperature gets cold. Tread pattern: a lot of approach shoes use a fairly smooth sole with shallow tread pattern (5.10 Guide Tennies, Evolv Cruzer, etc), that's great on solid dry rock where you want to get as much rubber in contact with the rock, but really bad on loose dirt, ball-bearing gravel, mud, snow, wet grass... you get the idea. Some approach shoes use a flat, smooth "climbing zone" around the toe for edging and climbing, and a different tread pattern everywhere else for hiking (I'll refer to them as "hybrid soles"). That seems to be a good compromise between hiking and climbing, and generally works better than flat, smooth soles. But even the shoes with hybrid soles aren't usually deep enough to work as well as the deep lugs on some hiking shoes. I don't know why none of the shoe companies make approach shoes with deep hiking tread in addition to the "climbing zone" near the toes, this really seems like a no-brainer to me. Anyway, I have yet to find a pair of shoes that hikes just as well as it climbs. That's why I end up with so many pairs of shoes, they all have their own pros and cons. The Evolv Bolt (discontinued) is probably the best pair I have with a good compromise between hiking and climbing. They have the "hybrid soles" I talked about, except, again, I wish the lugs on the heel and under the ball of the foot are deeper for mud and snow. I also have some 5.10 Guide Tennies that probably climb slightly better than the Bolt, hike worse than the Bolt, but with the "dot rubber" sole you do have to be careful on loose dirt, wet grass, etc.

Might want to check out these. They manage to tick all the boxes. Even though aren't as "climbing shoe" as the Bolts, they far more grippy and smear better than any other shoe or boot I own. The tight toe box and square sole edges nicely too. They have a "no blisters right out of the box" guarantee and they lived up to it. Most comfortable boot or shoe I've ever owned.

http://www.amazon.com/Salewa-MS-Firetai ... op?ie=UTF8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[thebeave7]

Overall I agree with Justin, stuff like Capitol its more helpful to be a comfortable confident scrambler than to have approach shoes. I prefer trail runners because I think the ankle flexibility makes climbing easier. Ever scrambled/climbed in ski boots? It's the most miserable experience ever.
I usually use Inov8 shoes, as they have fairly sticky rubber, though I know many that are partial to the Sportiva runners like Justin suggests. I've also climbed flatirons in the new Salomon Sense and they scramble decently.

Last week, Bakwin, Anton, and some other super fast scrawny runner dude passed us and they were all wearing the LS TX2s or maybe TX3s. I think the TX series might fill the niche.

Polar, playing around the Flatirons, finding an approach shoe that runs well, or a trail running shoe that smears well is somewhat of a holy grail quest.

Justin, I'm really surprised you don't have any resoled shoes from Rock n Resole (Boulder). I had them put some dot rubber on a pair of Inov8 X-talon trail runners and they are now by far my favorite flatiron climbing shoes. I know Anton, Peter, Buzz, etc... all have done this as well to at least one pair of shoes.
^ This is another option for those who just can't find a comfortable approach shoe. Rock n Resole in Boulder will put dot rubber onto any trail runner, and they are really damn good at it, as quite a few of us have used them for such. Most comfortable scrambling shoe ever.
https://www.instagram.com/p/9r-mD8Ddj_/ ... unner_elee" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eric

[justiner]

Eric, I've considered it for a pair of La Sportiva Ultra Raptors, which start with a pretty sticky sole to begin with, but the cost of doing this to a new shoe is a little prohibitive ($130 for a new pair + $60 for resole). So, I've always just wanted to wait out until the sole is a bit worn, then get a resole. By that time, other parts of the shoe are getting a little grungy and it makes little sense to slap a new sole on a worked pair of shoes. I also worry about the midsole being crushed out, and then running in a pair of shoes that could potentially hurt me (injuries suck!). A little paranoid? Probably.

Next time I find a new pair of shoes I liked on clearance, this is exactly what I plan to do. Rock and resole will do it in dot rubber or have the complete outsole all ready to go with the smooth, flat, climbing zone right in the front. I think Rock and Resole also has an outsole specifically for fishing, which is supposed to work well in wet, slippery conditions (FYI).

[Jeff Valliere]

If I were heading to Capitol, or anything similar in typical Colorado summer conditions (long approach, class 3/4 rock scrambling, dirty ledges, scree, talus, etc...), I would for sure pick the adidas Terrex X King that I recently reviewed here:

http://www.roadtrailrun.com/2016/04/adi ... ction.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The traction of the X King is better than any trail runner I have used to date (and I have probably tested ~350-400 shoes in the past 5.5 years). They have great protection, are reasonably light (~12oz. for my size 10, so certainly not a race shoe, but I think is the perfect blend of grip/protection/agility/weight/precision control for such an outing).

Many of the Sportivas would be great too, as well as numerous other trails runners with a sticky rubber compound.

[polar]

Might want to check out these.
http://www.amazon.com/Salewa-MS-Firetai ... op?ie=UTF8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Not you too! Must... not... buy more shoes! I have heard the Firetail is a great pair of approach shoes, but so far I've been able to resist the urge to buy a pair and try them myself. I did buy a pair of the Salewa Mountain Trainer last year when I saw it on sale (that's how they usually get me). Salewa used to market the Mountain Trainer as "approach shoes" (not anymore), but they are more like hiking shoes. They have become my favorite hiking shoes for all conditions, and I've managed to get up one 5.10d in them... on a toprope, with lots of hanging and crying on my part, and lots of tension and disgusted looks from my belayer.

Next time I find a new pair of shoes I liked on clearance, this is exactly what I plan to do.

STP has the La Sportiva Vertical K for $50 right now, seems like a decent pair of shoes. A few days ago I saw it on their daily deal page for $45 and almost bought it, but in the end I was able to keep myself in check. *pat on the back*

[TallGrass]

http://www.climbing.com/skills/learn-th ... n-science/

"Car tires have tread to improve grip in wet conditions because it allows the water on the surface of the road to escape as the tire presses down on it, improving the contact between the tire and the road. ... This is the same reason climbing shoes don’t have tread while sneakers and approach shoes do."

So sneakers and approach shoes have tread to avoid hydroplaning? What would this say about 4x4 tires? Footwear soles (tires too) have three broad components.

Flexibility/Rigidity: How much it deforms, if at all, where, and in which directions from hard rigid plastic boots to catpaw canvass Converse hightops (Chuck Taylors). No forefoot flex is like walking in ski boots while no rigidity is like getting pinched, poked, and stretched on every oddball rock and edge. Different parts of the foot have different needs (heel, arch, forefoot, toes) as can different terrain.

"Grip" Type: Three basic types with two being independent of friction so they work even on ice and oily stuff.
1. Tread blocks where the sides, not the bottom, push against the sides of surface features. Optimally, block size, shape and spacing is matched to ground features like meshing gears, hence the uniformity in specialist shoes versus the mix of generalist ones. Blocks range from goosebumps (look closely at various new sports shoes in a store) that wear off quickly to deep full-width blocks rivaled only by the heel notch and sides of the sole. Some even have mid-block serrations to expose more "side" when deformed under lateral pressure.
2. Surface-piercing like crampons, track spikes (1/4-1/2"), cleats (to varying degrees), various micro-spiky stuff. They basically stab or slice in to create a side to push against like tread blocks do.
3. Friction-dependent: The down-facing part that has to smear. One could argue they're just side-loading tread blocks on molecular level, but that's just why they're different -- we can't visually see them and have to resort to other "tests" to gauge suitability.

Material Type: Friction performance to longevity is a fairly inverse relationship, exacerbated by slipping, twisting, grinding, and other abrasiveness it sees. Leather, rubber, plastic, and metal all see use, some mixed like hobnailed leather-soled boots (Hull Cook, Albert Ellingwood).


So to tie this back in to the OP's question, you're going to see a lots of different terrain in different conditions in different temperatures, some unexpected. Specialty shoes are great only within their narrow use. Generalist may not perform as well, but have broader use. Whether to use skill to offset gear, or gear to offset skill can get into a chicken-egg debate, though either helps confidence. Unlike shoes, though, carrying added skills and experience adds zero to your trail weight.

So, Ben (OP), since you wrote "For something like Capitol, a class 4, should I consider...", I'd go find some low-exposure class 4 and low 5 rock to play on with the shoes you already own, and even some indoor top rope with them too. More often the wearer's mind and body, not the footwear, is the limiting factor on Cap, IMHO, but also quite adjustable. Regardless of what suits others, go test and discover what fits Ben and Ben's skill set, uses, and color scheme. It's a great peak and a fun route.

[FireOnTheMountain]

All you had to say was this

More often the wearer's mind and body, not the footwear, is the limiting factor

[bbass11]

Ever since I got my approach shoes, I have worn them for pretty much every class 3 or higher route I have done. My shoes are pretty comfortable hiking uphill but because of their tight fit can get uncomfortable going down for long periods of time, so I usually wear my chacos until I get to where the scrambling begins and then change shoes.

Are they necessary for 14er standard routes? Obviously not. Several people in my party on the Bell's traverse had huge hiking boots on, and you certainly won't need them for the knife edge. The knife edge is easy from a technical standpoint. You could do it in sandals easily.

But if you have them, I certainly think you'll appreciate the extra grip on rocks from an approach shoe. I loving having mine because it makes it easy to do things like walk up the homestretch of longs without hands, and the grip difference for me from my other hiking boots to my approach shoes is night and day on both dry and wet terrain.

[aholle88]

You can go up all the 14ers in trail runners, Capitol is no exception. I've done couloir climbs with strap crampons...class 3, class 4, and up to low class 5 in trail runners without much of an issue. Salamon 3Ds, Hoka high tops with vibram soles, Altra Olympus, all have done the job just fine. Capitol is not technical enough to warrant approach shoes. It is a knife edge, not a face you are trying to climb. Approach shoes would be more warranted if climbing say, Kit Carson's North Ridge, Crestone Traverse (last pitch to Needle), Bells traverse, etc... where you actually are doing rock climbing moves on a wall. Your hands are provided more protection than your feet when crossing the knife edge.

[AlexeyD]

As I've commented a number of times in these threads, I'm in the approach shoe camp on this. However, that's mostly because I just don't like hiking boots very much. I only find them useful in a relatively narrow range of conditions/times of year - namely, when it's too warm for mountaineering boots, but still too much snow and/or mud for approach shoes. For all other types of summer activity, I find the greater comfort and grip (even on non-scrambling terrain) to outweigh the advantages of hiking boots - and certainly so in more exposed situations where I prefer to have all the confidence I can.

That said, I also agree with the sentiment that it's ultimately more about being a comfortable scrambler, and also that most class 3 and 4 can be done in just about any type of shoe. I climbed the north ridge of Navajo Peak in the IPW (roped 5.4 climbing up, 3rd class down) in my Asolo mountaineering boots and found it to be OK. Ultimately, shoe choice comes down to the rate-limiting step on that given day...like if you're expecting to be kicking steps in 45-degree snow for a good way up, then probably approach shoes aren't the way to go.

Good luck!

[charro callado]

sportiva mutant trail runners...no problem