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polar wrote:...EDK is the only knot we climbers use that has its own disclaimer: the EDK is great! As long as you leave a foot long tail, and always pull all four strands to dress it, and only use it for bodyweight applications, and be careful with wet rope, or new rope, or really slick rope…
I don't really see the disclaimer bits as being a disclaimer, but more of that's the correct way to tie an EDK. Leaving short tails or not dressing it properly is the same thing as mis-tying any other knot.
polar wrote:...But to say the bowline is more accident prone, I’d like to see some numbers and sources...
Can't think any sources but if you google bowline climbing accident you'll find a ton of stuff that's probably mix of good info and total crap.
Brian C wrote:
I don't really see the disclaimer bits as being a disclaimer, but more of that's the correct way to tie an EDK. Leaving short tails or not dressing it properly is the same thing as mis-tying any other knot.
With body weight, perhaps it's superstition to have a strong preference one way or the other, but I think I'll stay away from figure 8s (mis-titled as EDK here: http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-acci ... usly-fails).
The EDK is a bomber knot though, the forces required to get it to fail are pretty darn high assuming it's properly tied. Way higher than what you'd see on rappel and high enough that it's used to tie cord together for anchors (with the recommendation being a second, stacked EDK). I think the biggest advantage is that it's stupid easy to tie and untie and easy to inspect. I'm skeptical that it pulls any better than any other knot option though, so many variables when pulling the rope.
oldschool wrote:What's wrong with a Figure 8 on a bight to tie ropes together?
I'm guessing you're referring to the flemish bend. The flat figure eight should never be used to join ropes, it rolls under very low forces.
The fisherman's is definitely really strong, but it's a PITA.
I've been a double fisherman man all my life, something about when I look at that knot then launch over the edge makes me feel good about myself. I also like mint gum over fruit flavored.
SchralpTheGnar wrote:I also like mint gum over fruit flavored.
I don't chew gum anymore, haven't in years. Does that mean I'm going to die?
Still Here
been scared and battered. My hopes the wind done scattered. Snow has friz me, Sun has baked me,
Looks like between 'em they done Tried to make me
Stop laughin', stop lovin', stop livin'-- But I don't care! I'm still here!
Langston Hughes
Brian C wrote:
I don't really see the disclaimer bits as being a disclaimer, but more of that's the correct way to tie an EDK. Leaving short tails or not dressing it properly is the same thing as mis-tying any other knot.
I agree, part of using the EDK correctly is to leave a long tail. We can call it “disclaimer”, “correct way to use the EDK”, “safety requirement”, whatever we want, but out of all the commonly used climbing knots, this unusually long tail is required only by the EDK. It may not be ideal to have a re-threaded figure eight or a double fisherman’s knot with 2-inch tail, but none of them would kill me. This in itself is a drawback of the EDK. Similar to the bowline which requires a backup knot or some sort of Yosemite finish, that is one drawback of the bowline.
"Getting to the bottom, OPTIONAL. Getting to the top, MANDATORY!" - The Wisest Trail Sign
Still Here
been scared and battered. My hopes the wind done scattered. Snow has friz me, Sun has baked me,
Looks like between 'em they done Tried to make me
Stop laughin', stop lovin', stop livin'-- But I don't care! I'm still here!
Langston Hughes
Note: the Flemish Bend (reversed Figure Eight) has been my default knot for 30+ years; during this time I've tied in with it thousands of times and used it for many hundreds of rappels. It is pretty hard to screw up and is not hard to untie, even after a high impact force whipper, if one snugs it down before weighting it.
I'm a three-sigma (at least) worrier but I don't worry about this knot failing or being tied incorrectly.
Note: the Flemish Bend (reversed Figure Eight) has been my default knot for 30+ years; during this time I've tied in with it thousands of times and used it for many hundreds of rappels. It is pretty hard to screw up and is not hard to untie, even after a high impact force whipper, if one snugs it down before weighting it.
I'm a three-sigma (at least) worrier but I don't worry about this knot failing or being tied incorrectly.
Thanks for the link. I agree that this article does an excellent job of summarizing. I've been using the EDK with stoppers on the end for canyoneering here in Moab the past few years, but this article/thread has convinced me to switch the the Flemish Bend. It's always good to have new knots in your arsenal.
Kai
"I want to keep the mountains clean of racism, religion and politics. In the mountains this should play no role."
- Joe Stettner
"I haven't climbed Everest, skied to the poles, or sailed single-handed around the world. The goals I set out to accomplish aren't easily measured or quantified by world records or "firsts." The reasons I climb, and the climbs I do, are about more than distance or altitude, they are about breaking barriers within myself."
