Climbing Dallas

[TallGrass]

The problem is I don't think anyone on the mountain for the first time would understand this maze of a disaster you described. According to your earlier post........ even you had problems route finding ?

"Maze of a disaster"? Hardly the first who has found a Roach description lacking (much less a Borneman and Lampert one) for a peak without a well-beaten or cairned path, but summited nonetheless. Just sharin' beta, use what you will.

[rijaca]

The problem is I don't think anyone on the mountain for the first time would understand this maze of a disaster you described. According to your earlier post........ even you had problems route finding ?

"Maze of a disaster"? Hardly the first who has found a Roach description lacking (much less a Borneman and Lampert one) for a peak without a well-beaten or cairned path, but summited nonetheless. Just sharin' beta, use what you will.

If you're complaining about a Roach or Borneman and Lampert route description, you really wouldn't like a Ormes route description.

[Garrett]

Tall Grass picture with the green dots shows the 5.7 route about as good as you can show it. Seemed like easier options could be found to the right (west) of where that photo was taken but didn't go that way personally. The 5.7 route was a very fun pitch and well worth doing, it had a little bit of thin ice on it if its cold. We stayed right on the lower part of it and I believe there is two fixed pins one lower, one higher on that route. Not completely sure on rope length we used a single 60m and had plenty but also cleaned an abandoned fixed 30 m line from the summit rap. I think whoever left it did so because they came up just shy with the doubled 30m and had to rap on the single strand. Unless someone has personal knowledge of a single 30m making it, probably a good idea to take rope totaling 50m or 60m.

[Dave B]

You increase risk without rope. Why do that?

I always heard rappelling is the most risky part - down climb whenever possible, rap only when necessary.

Very experienced and skilled climbers have died rappelling, it's not really a definitive decrease in risk, especially for the inexperienced.

[jomagam]

You increase risk without rope. Why do that?

I always heard rappelling is the most risky part - down climb whenever possible, rap only when necessary.

Very experienced and skilled climbers have died rappelling, it's not really a definitive decrease in risk, especially for the inexperienced.

That's very out of context. Hiking off on a class 1/2 trail is less risky than rappelling. Downclimbing free solo is more dangerous than rapping.

[Dave B]

Downclimbing free solo is more dangerous than rapping.

Citation needed.

A perfect example would be spiral route on Notchtop. There are 4 raps straight from the summit notch back to the route base, I would venture to guess >75% of climbers on that route do the low fifth down climb back to the spire couloir.

Dallas has a 5th class step, it can be down climbed as evidence from Blazingtoes picture. A noob rapping off of an anchor without proper knowledge of how to inspect said anchor is in NO WAY less dangerous than down climbing.

Edit: I'll disprove my own argument, from ANAM but paraphrased on MP:

Most common immediate cause is falling, by a large margin. From 1951-2005, ANAM has 4378 accidents attributed to falling or slipping. 671 from falling rock or ice. 271 from rappelling

Most common "contributory cause" is climbing unroped, roughly tied with "exceeding abilities"

It didn't differentiate between climbing up and climbing down. Nevertheless, I still think it's faulty to assume that using a rope is automatically safer than not - especially for the inexperienced.

[polar]

The biggest risk factor in rappelling is that a climber is relying entirely on the rope system with no independent backup. The system has multiple single failure points, ie. the rope, the belay device, the belay biner, the anchor attachment, etc. Coupled with the fact that rappelling usually happens at the end of the day, after we've topped out (or when we have to bail) on a route, when our minds are no longer highly focused, when we are tired, hungry, maybe wet and cold, possibly with dwindling daylight. Under these conditions, it's easy for someone to skip checking the anchor, or set up the belay device incorrectly, or forget to check for the middle mark on the rope. Unfortunately a small mistake when rappelling can have very bad consequences.

[TallGrass]

@ TomPierce, yes the Rando's a twin, though with ratings for single and double strand ("Impact Force: half 4.2 kN, twin 8.5 kN, UIAA Falls: half 5, twin 12") since it's also used as glacier single rope. Rapping on a single would be fine as it is less than catching a crevasse fall. Leading up the flake, I was tied into both ropes, but freeclimbed the Chock Bypass then belayed up my friend on one 30m rope doubled over (two strands).

@ rijaca, I can imagine. Beta comes in a variety of forms, sometimes it helps, sometimes it don't, kinda like tabasco sauce.

@ Dave B, skilled climbers have died rapping due to human error, like rapping off the end of a borrowed rope mistaking a 1/4 mark for the midpoint when setting up. If rope work is so dangerous, why does SAR use it? Situational, and different skill set, right?

@ Garrett, ok, we figured that was the 5.7, and yeah it'd be fun to explore more routes there with cooperative weather. Didn't notice any pins though Wineguy yelled up "is there any fixed pro?" because a cam had walked in. On rapping the summit-to-chockstone with just a 30m, if it came up short doubled up (more than 15m drop), I'd have rapped on one strand with a biner block opposite the quicklinks, and extended that end with slings, cordlette, webbing, draws, and cams for a pull down, OR tie off a laden backpack to the biner-blocked end to drop when the other end was unweighted. Come to think of it, that'd be the trick to doing Dallas with just a 30m combined with a rap down Chock Bypass or possibly Chock It Up, though I'd rig a personal anchor to guard against tripping into the chock hole when going for the pack. Nothing against taking a 40m or longer, but like weight-saving (and canyoneering ghosting) tricks like not packing 3L of water up if you know where to find and filter it higher up. Looking at center marking my rope as it would've told me how a doubled over 30m would fare when we rapped off with two 30m ropes tied together.

Considering the OP isn't as familiar with rappeling/abseiling, I'll mention the below.

Three Ways Raps Can Fail:
1. HUMAN ERROR: Most common and easiest to prevent. Clips in wrong, uses gear X in way Y, fails to inspect gear or anchor, skips safety measures, assumes instead of verifies (e.g. rope length), gets in a rush. The most important piece of gear is between your ears.
2. Gear Failure: Rare. If one was using sketch gear that was cracked, frayed, or with a lot of UV damage, attribute it to #1.
3. Geologic Time: Rare, but nothing is permanent. You just happened to be there when the rock or tree decided to go. Poor anchor placement choice though counts as #1.

INSPECT: Gear condition (wear), gear placement and application (clipped in properly), anchor gear, anchor object (tree, rock, etc.), snags (loose shirt near ATC), where rope does or doesn't end (aka landing zone). Never rush it. "How come there's always time to do it right the second time," is an adage, but seldom works for rapping or skydiving.

BACK IT UP: Use redundant, Justin Case, anti-Murphy, fall back measures for when s#!t happens like knotting ends of rope or tying them together, using an auto block and or fireman belay, using a personal anchor while rigging up your belay.

Personally, I like tying the ends together as it will catch in the ATC if the rap is longer than the rope, and if one side gets pulled it can't lead to a free end going out of reach as it's a loop. Have yet to get in the habit of an autoblock, but also have always used a side brake hand, never between the legs. Before unclipping my PA, I swing my left in a few circles so the rope is wrapped around my thigh, then swing the other way when brake hand is set to free rope. Don't know how I'd use an autoblock going aussie though. I started with a steel-8 then went to an ATC and learned to rap before I learned to climb with gear. Everyone starts somewhere, and gear as well as techniques have changed a lot over the decades, arguably centuries (read up on first and second ascents of the Matterhorn).

[polar]

@ TomPierce, yes the Rando's a twin, though with ratings for single and double strand ("Impact Force: half 4.2 kN, twin 8.5 kN, UIAA Falls: half 5, twin 12") since it's also used as glacier single rope. Rapping on a single would be fine as it is less than catching a crevasse fall. Leading up the flake, I was tied into both ropes, but freeclimbed the Chock Bypass then belayed up my friend on one 30m rope doubled over (two strands).

Your statement is misleading, or maybe you just don't know better. The 5 falls on one strand listed on Beal's web site are not UIAA falls. Beal did not state they are UIAA falls on their webpage, I'm guessing you added that bit. UIAA fall test is fall factor 1.77 with 80kg of weight. The single strand of Rando is tested with a fall factor of 0.8 using 80kg of weight. That's about half of the fall factor compare to the UIAA fall test. By stating Rando has "ratings for single and double strand", and that a single strand of Rando can hold 5 UIAA falls as "half", you're giving potentially dangerous misinformation, especially to people who do not know much about climbing ropes. Saying that you climbed on two ropes after giving such misinformation does not clear things up.

Looking at center marking my rope as it would've told me how a doubled over 30m would fare when we rapped off with two 30m ropes tied together.

Wait a minute... I guess I missed this earlier, let me get this straight: you didn't actually do the rap with a single 30m rope, but you tell people that a single 30m rope might work?

Also, a 30m rope might work for Dallas as you can rap to the chock stone then scramble down to a lower crack were there's another rap station. Know 30 will work the lower rap (used a 30m twin 8mm doubled over), but not positive for the upper (used a fisherman bend to join two 30m Randos to rap all the way in one go).

I know I used a 30m on Granite Peak (WY) and the raps felt longer than from Dallas' summit to the chockstone. ... Pretty sure a 30m will get you from the top to the block, but I didn't think to measure by halving one of the 30m ropes we used to measure.

Took bypass up to above chockstone. Rap station at top and a 30m will work (under 15m distance).
...
4. Vertical 120-degree pano with chockstone hole bottom, wall middle, and summit top. Possibly rapp-able w/ 30m rope, but make sure knotted ends reach.

Yep, you did! Ahhhh, classic TallGrass, making statements about things you're not sure about.

[TomPierce]

I share the concern stated above about being precise when it comes to giving advice/opinions on technical issues. Note that these ropes are designed to be paired when leading rock. I assume we agree that the specification regarding use as a twin or half does not refer to a single strand which has been folded in half. "Twin" = both ropes are used akin to a single, ie both ropes are clipped into each piece of gear together during ascent. "Half" use (also described as "doubles") means each of the two strands are clipped independently of the other, eg strand A goes into one piece, strand b typically goes into the next piece, but when used as half ropes the ropes are not clipped into one piece together. They alternate. I suspect that's part of the confusion regarding falls on a single strand, that's what happens when falling onto a piece when ropes are used as half/double ropes.

But Beal's information is clear that using the rope as a single strand is recommended only when it's typically glacier/crevasse work; some retail sites muddy the issue when suggesting it's ok with low force falls. Eh, how low? How exactly will you control for that? "Oh, only have a single strand, I'll choose to risk only low impact falls today!"

All that said, active climbers are rarely perfect, I've used a single twin folded in half and tied in with a figure 8 in a bight. Would it have held a fall? For what I was doing (far less than vertical terrain, a short bouncing fall was the only possible scenario), yes. Was it the safest use of that rope? Absolutely not. Would I use a single strand to lead something near vertical with likely higher forces if I fell? No way. But that's just me, I like to stack the odds in my favor.

Anyway, my point is that if someone is using these or similar ropes for full-on rock leading, using a single strand is not using the rope as designed, and increases risk. The easy solution is to pair them up appropriately and just climb them as twins, clipping both into each piece as you ascend.

-Tom

[Broken Knee]

WRT the risks of rapping, one thing that's not intuitive to many climbers is the effect of progressively getting on longer, harder, more sustained routes. At some point, one finds themselves on routes with few ledges where the multi-rap descent goes from hanging belay to hanging belay or possibly involving cramped stances. This adds to the physical and mental stress. Imagine if the hardest route you'd ever done was 500' with 3 pitches graded 5.6, 5.7 and 5.9. And then imagine that you'd managed a few one-pitch 5.10 leads and then decided you're ready for a 1000', 6 pitch route that has two 5.9 pitches and two 5.10 pitches - and all 4 of those turn out to be burly. Think about how wasted you'd be when rapping off that beast, after it had put you through the wringer for 12 hours... Now extrapolate this to alpine climbs where you find yourself sandbagged by a big route where you got off route and climbed on difficult, sketchy terrain, starting at midnight and now it's sunset and you're rapping off of bogus anchors, watching your rack shrink as you bail off your off-route fiasco. This is how some relatively experienced climbers got themselves into serious trouble - or dead. Yes, I'm telling on myself a bit. I'd recommend the Boardman-Tasker Omnibus and Touching The Void as required reading prior setting ambitious goals on big climbs.

[illusion7il]

Polar wrote :
Wait a minute... I guess I missed this earlier, let me get this straight: you didn't actually do the rap with a single 30m rope, but you tell people that a single 30m rope might work?

Also, a 30m rope might work for Dallas as you can rap to the chock stone then scramble down to a lower crack were there's another rap station. Know 30 will work the lower rap (used a 30m twin 8mm doubled over), but not positive for the upper (used a fisherman bend to join two 30m Randos to rap all the way in one go).

I know I used a 30m on Granite Peak (WY) and the raps felt longer than from Dallas' summit to the chockstone. ... Pretty sure a 30m will get you from the top to the block, but I didn't think to measure by halving one of the 30m ropes we used to measure.

Took bypass up to above chockstone. Rap station at top and a 30m will work (under 15m distance).
...
4. Vertical 120-degree pano with chockstone hole bottom, wall middle, and summit top. Possibly rapp-able w/ 30m rope, but make sure knotted ends reach.

Polar wrote:
Yep, you did! Ahhhh, classic TallGrass, making statements about things you're not sure about.[/quote]

I AGREE ! That's what I was trying to say earlier even though I posted rather compelling evidence. The rappel length is TEXTBOOK. I just skimmed through the trip reports on Dallas an NO ONE mentions a rope length of 30 meters.

If someone has descended Dallas with a 30 meter rope without having to down climb difficult terrain, PLEASE jump in and settle this issue with supporting evidence.

Something Positive.......
What's great about this Site is that you don't have to go by one persons experience or recommendation. For most climbs, there are more than a dozen trip reports / posts where a climber will be able to make there own determination. So make sure you do your own research even on the easiest of climbs.