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Re: 14er Peak Checklists

Postby AndYouSeeMe » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:38 pm

Well put, Abe. I am all about having the additional info available when you look at someones peak list. However, having it put out there every single time someone posts seems like overkill. In my opinion that just furthers the sense of competition and need to one-up other people. I am very competitive when it comes to mountaineering, don't get me wrong, but my adversary is the mountain itself, not another person who loves doing what I love also.

I also feel that having all that info listed on every post could potentially make someone believe a person is extremely skilled and experienced and take everything they say as gospel, when we all know the number of peaks climbed is not necessarily a sign of either of those things.

Great post Abe. I look forward to seeing how others feel about this.

And most importantly, Bill, this site rocks and has been the medium that has allowed me to make many great friends, and I cannot thank you enough for that. =D>

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Re: 14er Peak Checklists

Postby RJansen77 » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:52 pm

AndYouSeeMe wrote:Well put, Abe. I am all about having the additional info available when you look at someones peak list. However, having it put out there every single time someone posts seems like overkill. In my opinion that just furthers the sense of competition and need to one-up other people. I am very competitive when it comes to mountaineering, don't get me wrong, but my adversary is the mountain itself, not another person who loves doing what I love also.



Very well said, I've felt this way since the peak lists were improved but that feeling hasn't been strong enough to cause me to speak up. I feel that a sense of competition could certainly result from the additional aspects of the lists, but I hope that, climbing differences aside, everyone on this site can come together over something we love doing. For me, class 1 or class 5, it doesn't really matter (too much), I just love getting up into the hills!

Bill, thank you also for all the work you've put into this site. As I'm still relatively new to Colorado, it has introduced me to people who are more than just climbing partners. I feel like I've met some great folks who I can really trust, and I hope to be friends with them for years to come!
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Re: 14er Peak Checklists

Postby Matt Lemke » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:38 pm

AndYouSeeMe wrote:Well put, Abe. I am all about having the additional info available when you look at someones peak list. However, having it put out there every single time someone posts seems like overkill. In my opinion that just furthers the sense of competition and need to one-up other people. I am very competitive when it comes to mountaineering, don't get me wrong, but my adversary is the mountain itself, not another person who loves doing what I love also.

I also feel that having all that info listed on every post could potentially make someone believe a person is extremely skilled and experienced and take everything they say as gospel, when we all know the number of peaks climbed is not necessarily a sign of either of those things.

Great post Abe. I look forward to seeing how others feel about this.

And most importantly, Bill, this site rocks and has been the medium that has allowed me to make many great friends, and I cannot thank you enough for that. =D>



+1...I also think the numbers for peaks skid, trip reports and winter right up front is overkill. Just having the 14ers and 13ers numbers is perfect IMO. Great job with all the improvements though.
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Re: 14er Peak Checklists

Postby d_baker » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:40 pm

Interesting discussion. Thanks for bringing it up Abe.

Personally, I find the additional stats under our avatars interesting to see. It's quick. It's easy. If it was not displayed there, and if I were curious as to the checklist of a user, I would still look at their list.
Therefore, I'm glad the additional information is there. I like to see what others have done, especially if I might partner up with them for future trips. So it can help determine one's experience. But that is only one way to gauge experience, imo.

Maybe part of new stats is because of our egos. Yes, I have an ego, but I think we all do at different levels. I'm proud of my accomplishments, no matter how small compared to someone else's, or how much more it appears to be compared to someone with a lower peak count. We all have accomplished something, and for each of our goals might be different. The one thing we do have in common is a goal -- albeit the means and style we use to reach the goal may differ.

When I see someone's high peak list count or number of winter ascents, I don't look at it as competition or something I need to match or exceed. I have my own desires and goals, and it is what it is. I constantly see people on here rushing through the 14ers to "finish." Don't get me wrong, I want to finish too, and I will eventually. I have 2 14ers left, and that count has been like that for a couple of years now. I'm just not in a hurry.

If someone is looking at a user's peak list, whether the old way or the new way, and the first thing that comes to their mind is "I've got to beat that person!" then they're not climbing & hiking for the same reasons I do. But that's ok, that is their way, not mine. To each his own.
If that kind of determination undermines safety, and it's brought into the forum, I think that is a different story. And I'll speak up, even if people think I'm an ass. Oh well.

Again, interesting direction on this subject.

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Re: 14er Peak Checklists

Postby Matt Lemke » Sun Feb 12, 2012 8:52 pm

Maybe just take off the numbers for trip reports, since just showing the number of TR's a person has isn't too important and just clutters up the space up front... :-k
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Re: 14er Peak Checklists

Postby BillMiddlebrook » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:01 pm

Thanks for all of the comments!

The point of the informational links on forum threads is not to create competition or lessen the significance of peaks climbed but to provide quick information and TR links for those posting in a thread.

As far as the peak lists, the additional information certainly has value when trying to evaluate (?) a potential partner but I can understand how some people might see a potential for competition. I suppose that could be the case for many pages on the site - like people competing for the most photos on a TR, highest number of 14ers summitted on the main list page, most posts in the forum, etc... I'd rather provide the information but I would remind everyone that these are just numbers on a screen and peak totals may not be accurate. Yes, some people lie!

If some people think the list links are overkill and don't want them displayed, I could add a "don't show list info" option to the site Display Settings.

Matt Lemke wrote:Maybe just take off the numbers for trip reports, since just showing the number of TR's a person has isn't too important and just clutters up the space up front... :-k

Good point - and it would save page processing time.
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Re: 14er Peak Checklists

Postby Shawnee Bob » Sun Feb 12, 2012 9:52 pm

I like the additions. They don't bug me because I know I'm never going to be in a competition with some of the more experienced or higher achievers here. Proximity rules that out. However, if I ask for a buddy from the forum to go with me on a trip, those numbers might give me some background on the person's experience (I'm planning on a Lost Rat ascent in May and would love a more experienced person to team up with).

For the life of me, however, I can't imagine why folks would compete for most TRs, most photos on a TR, most comments on the forum or lie about their peak list! On the latter, it just sets you up for being massively exposed!
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Re: 14er Peak Checklists

Postby Mark A Steiner » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:43 pm

I believe most, if not all participants of this site, including the so-called overachievers are here because they have a passion just for visiting the high places. To go there you either love it or you don't. Up until now there has been little, if any blantant attempts at one-upmanship. Some of us who have little to show on the checklists are just as passionate about visiting 13ers or 14ers because it creates opportunities for us to share our experiences with friends and family in far-away places who have never heard of or seen a 14er, let alone hiked one. It also enables us to share our enthusiasm with others by inviting them to visit the site. There are still many who have never been up high, avoided it due to fear or just don't have a passion for visiting the incomparably unique places found up high.

Recall this creates additional work and site maintenance for Bill, so in closing just appreciate his fine efforts and give thanks for the numerous opportunities many here have had, best illustrated in photos and trip reports, to enjoy and share the high country.
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Re: 14er Peak Checklists

Postby milan » Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:39 pm

Like any information, depends how people use them. I usually look at peoples' profiles to evaluate (I know its not flawless) when I want to hike with somebody or when someone gives me advice. I am not competitive at all, so I don't care if someone has done much more than I did. I like to check boxes next to the mountain names here for fun, not that I would push myself to climb irresponsibly just to get another box checked. I climb/hike the mountains because I like it, I choose them based on distance to drive, my skills, weather and possible co-hikers. I hope there are not many people who would kill themselves just to have another blue snow flake next to their avatar. Also, I have favorite trip report writers and from that reason, I like the shortcut to get there..

Anyways, Bill, I miss the winter climb option for 13ers, I just hiked my first and I am very sad that its not going to appear next to my avatar on this thread, I'd be so happy to show everybody how COOL I am.... :lol: :lol: :lol: ....Just kidding..

Re: 14er Peak Checklists

Postby FireOnTheMountain » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:25 pm

To be honest, when I made the inital post I wasn't really going in the direction that people are trying to one-up one another although now I can for sure see how that is a possibility. I share Darin's view on the issue and I am also quite a competitive person which is why I got into trail running races.

d_baker wrote:. If someone is looking at a user's peak list, whether the old way or the new way, and the first thing that comes to their mind is "I've got to beat that person!" then they're not climbing & hiking for the same reasons I do. But that's ok, that is their way, not mine. To each his own.


I was more trying to emphasize the fact that people may try to show off or claim they are good mountaineers solely based on their "stats".

I have met people from this site who should brag yet are so humble and are willing to listen to what you have to say. I definietly try to learn from these people beacuse I feel humblesness goes a long way...but thats just me.

Maybe the greats like Steck, Messner, House and Anker see things differently but I bet they wouldn't deny what I am saying.
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Re: 14er Peak Checklists

Postby AndYouSeeMe » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:47 pm

Humbleness (is that a word?) is a huge thing for me when it comes to mountaineering. And upon further thought, having things showing up or not showing up next to someones name is not going to change whether that person is humble or a show-off know-it-all who feels they are better than others. That's just the way some people are, and I guess I just need to get better at ignoring and distancing myself from those negative influences who seem to be doing things for all the wrong reasons.

Re: 14er Peak Checklists

Postby AndYouSeeMe » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:50 pm

Great post Jenny, but I can guarantee you there are people who are doing things in the mountains more for bragging rights and to make you see just how badass they are, I mean think they are.

Jussayin

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