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Gatherings and Wilderness Areas

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Re: Gatherings and Wilderness Areas

Postby Upstate Hiker » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:12 pm

Oh come on... just because he picked his words carefully doesn't mean he wasn't trying to call us out on last weekend. ](*,)

Re: Gatherings and Wilderness Areas

Postby Bean » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:15 pm

Upstate Hiker wrote:Oh come on... just because he picked his words carefully doesn't mean he wasn't trying to call us out on last weekend. ](*,)

I don't disagree with you there. Preachy call-out? Maybe. Troll? Hardly.
gdthomas wrote:Bean, you're an idiot.

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Re: Gatherings and Wilderness Areas

Postby Chicago Transplant » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:23 pm

I specifically did not mention any particular group because I am not trying to single anyone out, "hate" on anyone's success, or "troll" the forum in anyway. I even stated I have participated in such events in the past.

What people read into internet posts is why these threads always seem to delve into the "flame" category and why I haven't posted such a thread after the several other previous gatherings that violated the wilderness numbers. I have bit my tongue on this subject for probably about 4 years now. I apologize to the groups on Holy Cross if they thought I was talking about them, that was not my intent. I guess I should have waited another month or so for the recent gatherings to fall out of memory, I apologize for making it look like I was picking on your group. It wasn't my intent.

I don't expect solitude on 14ers, and I appreciate that large groups convene at summits, but split up on the trails. Ours did too. I just think going forward, perhaps planning large events in other areas makes sense. We are all learning and growing as climbers over time, and I thought this was a valid conversation to have as our sport/hobby becomes more popular.
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Re: Gatherings and Wilderness Areas

Postby wildlobo71 » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:23 pm

I am assuming that Mike is writing in response to the two recent group gatherings on the same day at Holy Cross. If not, I will still use this last weekend as my example.

My group exceeded 15, perhaps we had upwards of 22... the Gurlz Hike had perhaps a similar number... Camping that Friday night was split into two areas - the Gurlz stayed down adjacent to the Tigiwon Community House, and maybe no more than 10 people there... My group stayed in the paid camping area adjacent to the TH... we also had maybe 10-12 that camped - the others came in the morning for the hike.

The two groups tried to maintain separation by about an hour - so for perhaps the first mile to two miles into the hike was about the most clustered of any portion of the hike - and it was all single file, no social hiking (side by side). By the creek crossing, people had split into their natural ability level groups; the two groups eventually merged and further split... It probably spread out summit arrivals from the first to the last summiters to over 2 hours apart. At the summit, the group of up to 40 convened... and then left, again spreading out and going at their pace.

We passed others on the way who were not part of the groups, and they were supportive. I know in my group we felt we had to explain and offer a light-hearted apology because this was a rare time where those people outside our groups picked a mountain that was not going to be as solitary for Late September as they may have hoped... no one voiced any opposition. On a social location as a popular mountain, I believe people are more forgiving of the occasional loud group and good time being had, but I may be wrong about that.

I think groups like this are unavoidable - for any of us if we choose this as a social activity, it will occur... they aren't frequent. I think all participants understand the small amount of risk if we knowingly exceed group sizes. I know that as a group we did no more or less to the environment than any other typical summer day does for The Holy Cross Wilderness and summit. If it weren't for congrats threads and trip reports, no one would have gone there Sunday and known we were there Saturday.

I have no problem with CT voicing his concerns for something he believes in, he's not trolling.
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Re: Gatherings and Wilderness Areas

Postby ChrisRoberts » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:26 pm

I doubt this post is 100% directed at people climbing up 14ers, but rather to the wilderness areas and peaks in general. Pointing out the purpose behind splitting up an oversized group climbing Grays might be a bit pointless, but for a wilderness peak with no trail(and thus your 15+ sized group is forced to walk on tundra)...in an area where solitude can be somewhat expected(<14000' peaks) the reasoning behind this guideline is important. In the end, solitude is not an inalienable right. But that doesn't mean you cant at least attempt to spread out to make solitude more achievable.

As far as camping with a group even approaching 10+ people, come on. Thats just ridiculous outside of an established campground.


Chicago Transplant wrote: For one, I do volunteer ranger work in the Holy Cross and Eagles Nest Wilderness areas and feel as one of my duties, I should pass the word along.


Thank you for volunteering.
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Re: Gatherings and Wilderness Areas

Postby DeucesWild » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:34 pm

Deuces first law of 14ers.com dynamics. For every action, there is an equal or greater overreaction. This thread is exhibit A.

I learned that on the Physician's thread.

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Re: Gatherings and Wilderness Areas

Postby Upstate Hiker » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:36 pm

I don't know what is worse... holier than thou preaching or all the comments made to prove how smart/cool/tough/etc you boys are. I quit.

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Re: Gatherings and Wilderness Areas

Postby Upstate Hiker » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:42 pm

Yes, CT thank you for pointing out you volunteer.

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Re: Gatherings and Wilderness Areas

Postby TallGrass » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:49 pm

I thought the Fall Gathering was done nicely as, from what I understood, it was on private property. I don't think it would be that hard to "camp" near but outside a 14er wilderness area, be LNT, and still close enough for those who want to go for a hike. I like playing for a win-win(-win) even though it might take a little more work. And when you consider the honeybucket Craig trailered, you can literally say we packed our $#!@ out! :)
Not sure if I'll do more 14ers. The trip reports are too tiring. :wink:

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Re: Gatherings and Wilderness Areas

Postby speth » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:50 pm

If you were to hike around Maroon Lake, would you have to tell everyone on your bus to go away... or is it the amount of people that arrive in the parking lot per car the official group count? Wilderness rules get a little gray for me sometimes...
I'll be damned if I feel like I will ever know anything, but if we don't keep moving on that last hill, we'll never know what's on the other side.
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The rain and thunder, the wind and haze are bound for better days. My life, my dream. Nothin's gonna stop me now.
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[-X What are you insinuating? Do you think I'm Ranger? =; Because if you do than you are dead wrong.
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Sarcasm or not, it's not even funny to post something like this. Not at this time. Reported.
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Re: Gatherings and Wilderness Areas

Postby Kiefer » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:52 pm

Upstate Hiker wrote:I don't know what is worse... holier than thou preaching or all the comments made to prove how smart/cool/tough/etc you boys are. I quit.


I would recommend a weaker spf sunscreen. It won't do much for thickening your skin but it will make your skin a bit 'tougher' for whethering
Internet social dynamics.

Real question is: Why are you taking this SO personally? Guilty about something?

Mike's bringing up an extremely valid point that honestly, should deserve some attention and thought. Open discussion is a good thing as long as folks stay focused on the topic.
Over-reactions like what you're exhibing only serve to derail the discussion.
Sure YOU'RE not the troll? :-k

If you perceive any ruler swatting the back of your hand, it's of your own creation.

BTW: I volunteer as well, up in RMNP. I don't agree with all their rules...some I downright hate, but I recognize why they're in place.
"Wisdom comes from making mistakes.
Experience, is the knowledge of knowing what to do when one makes a mistake and wisdom,
stems from the changes we go through while learning from those mistakes."

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Re: Gatherings and Wilderness Areas

Postby Chicago Transplant » Wed Oct 03, 2012 4:53 pm

I have a ton of respect for Otina as a climber and a person, so maybe my timing was bad because it was right after her posting her trip report. I am truly sorry for making it look like I was calling her or anyone else from the groups this weekend out in anyway. I guess you never know how someone is going to interpret your words until they call you a hater, a troll and then a sexist. Sorry to offend you Upstate Hiker. I enjoy volunteering, and just though I would pass something along that I had learned in my training to this community. Happy trails!


Just one more on topic thought before I log off-

You all may remember or not, but back when Terry was organizing the spring gathering in the Sangres he specifically asked groups to split up to keep the numbers in check. The US Forest Service even contacted Bill Middlebrook specifically about the gathering because of size concerns they had. This site is bigger than any of its members or all of them collectively and a lot of people are watching. This is a public site after all.
"We want the unpopular challenge. We want to test our intellect!" - Snapcase
"You are not what you own" - Fugazi
"Life's a mountain not a beach" - Fortune Cookie I got at lunch the other day

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