Avalanche at St. Mary's glacier

Colorado peak questions, condition requests and other info.
Forum rules
  • This is a mountaineering forum, so please keep your posts on-topic. Posts do not all have to be related to the 14ers but should at least be mountaineering-related.
  • Personal attacks and confrontational behavior will result in removal from the forum at the discretion of the administrators.
  • Do not use this forum to advertise, sell photos or other products or promote a commercial website.
  • Posts will be removed at the discretion of the site administrator or moderator(s), including: Troll posts, posts pushing political views or religious beliefs, and posts with the purpose of instigating conflict within the forum.
    For more details, please see the Terms of Use you agreed to when joining the forum.
User avatar
Alby426
Posts: 394
Joined: 8/9/2007
14ers: 33 
13ers: 38 1
Trip Reports (4)
 

Avalanche at St. Mary's glacier

Post by Alby426 »

We went up to Saint Mary's glacier for some training and attempt James peak. It soon became appearent that we wouldn't make the summit so, we dacided to do a bit of self arrest training and glacier training.
The glacier is exposed now and it's a great time to train crampon work: there is a lot of ice up there.
After a while, we descended down to almost the lake level and found a slope to train on self arrest. Conditions were almost white outand, difficult to asses our exact location in regards to the mountain. Well, we were surrounded by bushes and rocks but the slope looks OK for our intended pourpose. After several practice runs, we regrouped up on by the bush above where our backpacks were and, while we were getting the rope out to practice glacier travel, we all (4 of us) experienced a very strong force that at first felt like a huge wind gust.
Well, it wes an avalanche!
We found out later, once we could see better, that we were below a chute and, a cornice, way above, probably came down.
In an instant, all our backpacks were burried, we had snow up to our knees, and, one of our member, more xposed, was transported about 30 feet down the slope. Well, we quickly recuped all of our gear, after assesing no injuries and, headed out of there.
Thelesson: we had not assesed our situation correctly.

A big reminder to everyone, conditions are favorable to avalanche and, even if you think that you are safe, you are not.
Be safe.
Last edited by Alby426 on Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
My duty, as a human, is not to take, but, to give!
User avatar
geojed
Posts: 932
Joined: 6/30/2009
14ers: 58  8 
13ers: 138 13
Trip Reports (29)
 

Re: Avalanche at St. Mary's glacier

Post by geojed »

Wow! :shock: Glad everyone is okay.
• It's by getting away from life that we can see it most clearly... It's by depriving ourselves of the myriad of everyday experiences that we renew our appreciation for them...I've learned from my experiences in the mountains that I love life. — Dave Johnston
• Mountains are not climbed merely to reach a geographical location — but as personal and spiritual challenges to the participants. — David Stein
ballackout
Posts: 12
Joined: 6/15/2012
14ers: 11 
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Avalanche at St. Mary's glacier

Post by ballackout »

you should consider reporting this to CAIC.

https://avalanche.state.co.us/obs/obs_s ... bsfm=field" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
User avatar
mtnfiend
Posts: 256
Joined: 2/13/2010
14ers: 34  14  2 
13ers: 181 58 6
Trip Reports (2)
 

Re: Avalanche at St. Mary's glacier

Post by mtnfiend »

You should definitely report it to the CAIC. I'm sure they (and other backcountry users in CO for that matter) would appreciate the info.
Alby426 wrote:The lesson: we had not assessed our situation correctly.
So the correct assessment would have included paying closer attention to the terrain above you?

Glad everyone was ok.
Didn't I ever tell you.....Bumble's bounce!!!

http://exploringtherockies.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.berthoudpass.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
@snow_nerd
User avatar
RocksAreNeat
Posts: 25
Joined: 6/1/2010
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Avalanche at St. Mary's glacier

Post by RocksAreNeat »

The biggest mistake we made was judging overall conditions based on the terrain we could see, and what was immediately around us. Our ice axes were hitting dirt, plants and rocks were still visible through the snow, and as far up as we could see conditions were the same. We failed to recognize how much snow was being blown up the gully by strong winds, and that a cornice or wind loaded slab may exist higher up. Visibility was very poor, maybe a few hundred feet during occasional lulls in the wind and typical 50-100' visibility looking up the slope. We should have recognized how much snow is moved/deposited by strong wind and identified the gully as a hazard. Lesson learned, and thankful it was a minor slide.
User avatar
Nelson
Posts: 396
Joined: 8/25/2008
14ers: 58  8  14 
Trip Reports (26)
 

Re: Avalanche at St. Mary's glacier

Post by Nelson »

Thanks for sharing. I hope we can all learn from your experience.

Glad you all are safe.

Nelson
Doug Shaw
Posts: 2079
Joined: 5/23/2005
Trip Reports (5)
 

Re: Avalanche at St. Mary's glacier

Post by Doug Shaw »

Al,

I would like to ask a pretty direct question, and I hope you won't take offense. I am posting it publicly not to call you out, but as a potential learning tool for those who may read this thread.

Have you considered complacency as a partial explanation for this incident as well?

I don't know the dynamics of the group you were with, but St. Mary's Glacier is a pretty forgiving area. I have been struggling to understand how you yourself have on two occasions fairly recently avoided disaster there only by a twist of fate (the other occurrence that I know of being your self-arrest demonstration that went awry). Two times in just three years' time is a hard record to defend, and I doubt you're spending so much time at St Mary's Glacier that these are just statistical certainties.

These sorts of things can happen, that's true - it's part of the game - and I try not to attribute too much weight to "only two" incidents, but with this frequency in relatively friendly, familiar areas I would suggest that it wouldn't hurt to ask if there is something else going on other than dumb luck. I've only had a couple comparable situations in 12 years in CO (though I do admit that I have a generally overdeveloped - but not perfect - sense of self-preservation).

Your profile says you have been climbing since you were a teen; if you were having near-misses with this level of frequency everywhere you climbed I suspect you would have been dead by now.

In your profile you say "I use past experience to help me on my next adventure". One thing to beware is reviewing individual accidents in a contextual vacuum and looking for some unique "cause" to an accident - if you are looking for it, you will find it, whether it is accurate or not. But be careful to not blame the situation or even to identify something that you "did wrong" and in the process fail to recognize a deeper issue that is itself leading to other mistakes.

Cheers, and I hope to not read about any more accidents at St Mary's Glacier for a while... from anybody!
User avatar
crossfitter
Posts: 901
Joined: 7/7/2009
Trip Reports (7)
 

Re: Avalanche at St. Mary's glacier

Post by crossfitter »

Doug, the self-arrest demonstration where Al went head-over-heels (assuming we are talking about the same one) was intentional. I was there for it and he deliberately put his feet down to demonstrate the danger of not keeping your feet up.
Doug Shaw wrote:Al,

I would like to ask a pretty direct question, and I hope you won't take offense. I am posting it publicly not to call you out, but as a potential learning tool for those who may read this thread.

Have you considered complacency as a partial explanation for this incident as well?

I don't know the dynamics of the group you were with, but St. Mary's Glacier is a pretty forgiving area. I have been struggling to understand how you yourself have on two occasions fairly recently avoided disaster there only by a twist of fate (the other occurrence that I know of being your self-arrest demonstration that went awry). Two times in just three years' time is a hard record to defend, and I doubt you're spending so much time at St Mary's Glacier that these are just statistical certainties.

These sorts of things can happen, that's true - it's part of the game - and I try not to attribute too much weight to "only two" incidents, but with this frequency in relatively friendly, familiar areas I would suggest that it wouldn't hurt to ask if there is something else going on other than dumb luck. I've only had a couple comparable situations in 12 years in CO (though I do admit that I have a generally overdeveloped - but not perfect - sense of self-preservation).

Your profile says you have been climbing since you were a teen; if you were having near-misses with this level of frequency everywhere you climbed I suspect you would have been dead by now.

In your profile you say "I use past experience to help me on my next adventure". One thing to beware is reviewing individual accidents in a contextual vacuum and looking for some unique "cause" to an accident - if you are looking for it, you will find it, whether it is accurate or not. But be careful to not blame the situation or even to identify something that you "did wrong" and in the process fail to recognize a deeper issue that is itself leading to other mistakes.

Cheers, and I hope to not read about any more accidents at St Mary's Glacier for a while... from anybody!
- A mountain is not a checkbox to be ticked
- Alpinism and mountaineering are not restricted to 14,000 foot mountains
- Judgment and experience are the two most important pieces of gear you own
- Being honest to yourself and others about your abilities is a characteristic of experienced climbers
- Courage cannot be bought at REI or carried with you in your rucksack

User avatar
DaveSwink
Posts: 837
Joined: 9/21/2006
14ers: 37  12 
13ers: 4
Trip Reports (6)
 

Re: Avalanche at St. Mary's glacier

Post by DaveSwink »

crossfitter wrote:Doug, the self-arrest demonstration where Al went head-over-heels (assuming we are talking about the same one) was intentional. I was there for it and he deliberately put his feet down to demonstrate the danger of not keeping your feet up.
Holy cow! I missed the self arrest thread somehow. That video is amazing. Backflipping down a slope with an ice axe in your hand? Why would anyone do that on purpose? I would not want to see the equivalent demonstration of how not to belay. :shock:
Doug Shaw
Posts: 2079
Joined: 5/23/2005
Trip Reports (5)
 

Re: Avalanche at St. Mary's glacier

Post by Doug Shaw »

crossfitter wrote:Doug, the self-arrest demonstration where Al went head-over-heels (assuming we are talking about the same one) was intentional. I was there for it and he deliberately put his feet down to demonstrate the danger of not keeping your feet up.
Oh, I know it was started intentionally. But he definitely wasn't "in control" going down the slope ("Holy cow", comments about his privates taking a bit of a hit), which means that the tumbling itself wasn't just a demonstration, it was real. I think he was extremely fortunate that all he did was nail himself in a sensitive area ... with the axe flailing around he's lucky he didn't injure himself for real in that tumble. And that was sort of my point - despite being an intentional act, he put himself at significant risk doing that. What judgements or assessments led him to think that was a good idea, or otherwise wasn't a big deal or risk to do it?

(With deference to his method of instructing, I've never felt it necessary to demonstrate the risk of that potential scenario... I think people's imaginations are capable of imaging it sufficiently strongly based on a verbal description. :mrgreen: )
User avatar
jdorje
Posts: 1388
Joined: 6/16/2010
14ers: 12 
13ers: 27
Trip Reports (16)
 

Re: Avalanche at St. Mary's glacier

Post by jdorje »

Doug Shaw wrote:With deference to his method of instructing, I've never felt it necessary to demonstrate the risk of that potential scenario... I think people's imaginations are capable of imaging it sufficiently strongly based on a verbal description.
While it's not necessary to demonstrate in person, a video of it is a great tool. He may have been lucky to avoid injury on that, but there's a much greater chance that watching that video would prevent at least one other person from injuring themselves.

As for the rest - complacency is the single greatest threat when on familiar terrain, whether it was a factor in this close call or not. Heuristic traps and all that.

Last edited by jdorje on Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"I don't think about the past, and the future is a mystery. Only the present matters."
User avatar
Alby426
Posts: 394
Joined: 8/9/2007
14ers: 33 
13ers: 38 1
Trip Reports (4)
 

Re: Avalanche at St. Mary's glacier

Post by Alby426 »

Doug, I am mot at all offended, I believe inpassing on my experiences for the benefit of others. Crossfitter, probably answered one part of the question and, as far as complecency, I don't believe it was the case. Rocksareneat, that was there with me, described our approach to the terrain. What I didn't tell in my story, is that I had made an assesment of the snowpack on the slope before we started andd, it was this: I dug out snow to the ground below and, found the 10 inches or so of snow to be stable. There were no appearent layers or granulous snow. All the snow was packed and not prone to sliding.
After the slide, we looked carefully at the slope above us and, notoced that it hadn't moved. We concluded that it must have been a cornice as, it was the most probable cause. It was inpossible, at anytime to see the top of the slope, even from higher up on the glacier as visubility was very low.
As far as determining how we could have aboid it, I am still mulling that over. Obviously, not going would have been an answer but, I am not one to avoid just because there is a remote chance that...
My knowledge of the area should have been one solution but, ad I said, we made wrong assessments: snow condition, snow anchors, area for training, weather conditions, etc. Trust me, we didn't get there and wrecklessly went for it.
Mountaineering is dangerous, just remember that. If I never went up there, then I shouldn't worry about it.
Guys be safe and enjoy our beautiful mountains.
Post Reply