Self defense in the backcountry

[Steve Gio]

All I know is this thread has thoroughly freaked me out. I do worry about such things but it seems others think about it much more or far less. I am always in the middle ground.

If everyone I met on trails was carring a gun that would be disturbing. If I saw people carrying a K bar or rambo knife that would be disturbing.

[skier25]

Protect yourself in the backcountry with good terrain management! I have been reading old avalanche reports and I'm 2/3 the way through "Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain." So far, it's been a very educational and sobering read. I think this year we'll see a higher number of avalanche accidents, judging from the numerous early season avalanches. Be careful and constantly think about the consequences of travel through avalanche terrain!

I like this picture from Oct 2009. Have you ever been on a slope like this? Travel up the rocky, windward slopes would have been best. But if you were skiing down, would you have been able to avoid danger? The avalanche slid a week after the picture was taken.


3 climbers/skiers were caught on Oct 31 2009 - no fatalities. A full report can be found here:

http://www.mtavalanche.com/sites/default/files/Granite%20Peak%20Avalanche%20Report%2010.31.09.pdf

[BobbyFinn]

All I know is this thread has thoroughly freaked me out. I do worry about such things but it seems others think about it much more or far less. I am always in the middle ground.

I've never been in a situation that made me think about self defense while hiking/camping. Though I've used some of the skills/discipline I learned in my self defense training while hiking to keep me focused and moving during my first experience with hip deep postholing and other challenging situations. I have thought about self defense in the context of hiking/camping though, but it's not a frequent occurrence. I don't think having thought about it and being able to express opinions on the topic is cause to freak anyone out. I think it's just proper preparation - those who don't think about it or who think it will never happen will be shocked if it ever does happen to them; those who do think about self defense situations (in the context of being prepared for it) will no doubt be scared and a little freaked, but are unlikely to panic. Not panicking is the key to getting out of a lot of situations - not just self defense.

[Chris Gerber]

If everyone I met on trails was carring a gun that would be disturbing.

Why would it be disturbing? Because you'd be concerned about the people carrying the guns or because you'd think there was some threat? (really, just not sure which it is)

Most of the time, you'd never know someone was carrying. You'd never know when I was.

[Chris Gerber]

I've never been in a situation that made me think about self defense while hiking/camping. Though I've used some of the skills/discipline I learned in my self defense training while hiking to keep me focused and moving during my first experience with hip deep postholing and other challenging situations. I have thought about self defense in the context of hiking/camping though, but it's not a frequent occurrence. I don't think having thought about it and being able to express opinions on the topic is cause to freak anyone out. I think it's just proper preparation - those who don't think about it or who think it will never happen will be shocked if it ever does happen to them; those who do think about self defense situations (in the context of being prepared for it) will no doubt be scared and a little freaked, but are unlikely to panic. Not panicking is the key to getting out of a lot of situations - not just self defense.

Really well said.

[Shawnee Bob]

Interesting points made by all. I sure wouldn't want anyone so bothered by the content of question that they would become fearful of hiking and climbing. It's more of a question of 1) Do you think this is something worth preparing for, and 2) what do you do to prepare?

I've never carried a firearm into the backcountry. Haven't hunted in 13 years. I can remember a time in Montana where I was in a very brush-filled area fishing and, realizing I was alone in bear country, got the heebie-jeebies and got outta there. At home in Oklahoma or hiking in Colorado, I don't see the need, per se, for a gun. I might think different if I were going solo. But in Wyoming or further north, I'd carry for sure. Otherwise, I rely on what I have with me -- knife, axe, poles, being in a group and having a working knowledge of self-defense (when it comes to human attackers). Seems that harm would be more likely to come from people than animals, but if an animal is intent on getting you, your chances against a predator or a large herbivore are not good without a firearm.

HOWEVER, your chances of going into the backcountry and having a safe, excellent and memorable time are, in my experience, VERY good if your preparation is solid.

[Colorado dreaming]

The murder statistic, assuming it is accurate even though it give no clue on how it was determined (i.e. what/where/geographical limits/etc), hardly seems relevant to this thread. Fort Collins averages 1 murder/year for approx 150K people (most of the victims knew their murderer (even in the Tim Master's case, the ex-boyfriend's DNA was on the victim) - not a stranger on the trail). Toledo, OH has about 300K but averages around 35-40 murders/yr (i.e. a 1700-2000 times higher murder rate than FTC) but even most of these murders occur in a small area just off downtown. In other words, certain cities with high murder rates that skew statistics and small geographical areas within a city often are the most dangerous. So, statistics must be deeply analyazed before giving them credibility or to see how and when they apply to a given circumstance to see if they are comparable and to what degree they are comparable.

Further, according to the May 1997 Backbacker Magazine (pg 60, et seq), since 1937, the AT has had 9 murders but just in the years 1989 to 1997 (8 years), 28 million people have been on that trail. So, 9 murders in 60 years but 3.5 million (28M/8yrs) people travel it every year (and I'm sure that has increased since 1997). Now take that in context nationwide - NO OTHER national long distance trail HAS EVER HAD A MURDER (according to the magazine as of 1997). (Now the article also states the statistic of 1:20,000,000 of being murdered in a national park - but I have no idea what this represents (over what time frame, per visit, ???)so it is meaningless). The National Parks in 1995 had 13 murders but 270 million visitors (the article does not state how many of these murderers and victims knew each other - I tend to think a large portion already knew each other). The article goes on to state that most of these murders occurred where the victims were easily accessible - (i.e. trailheads, parking lots, camping sites, etc.) According to Park's keeper of crime stats, the "overwhelming" crime is front country (not backcountry) since the backcountry is not where criminals tend to go. Also, from personal knowledge and the information posted on 14ers.com, I tend to think that the trouble you will mostly likely find from the 2 legged kind will occur at the TH or at a campsite - not on a trail. And those seem to involve late night alcohol/drugs binging. The article has good suggestions on how to be safe - mainly common sense suggestions (don't hike alone/don't leave itineraries on car/don't flaunt expensive gear/be alert for someone who's acting suspicious/drunk/aggressive/has inadequate gear (i.e. lying about their goal)/avoid confrontation).

[Chris Gerber]

Uniform crime stats are here:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

They may even break down by county, not sure, didn't dig that deep.

-------

This thread is apparently like every other political thread on the Internet. Nobody's going to change anyone else's mind and people are only interested in arguing why their point is right and the other one is wrong (primarily why the other point is wrong), instead of trying, for a moment, to look at it from the other person's point of view. I'm obviously guilty too. For the record, if you want to go into the world everyday with a plan for self-defense: great. If you want to go into the world everyday trusting your life to the plans of the universe: great. Either way doesn't affect me (unless I know you personally)... I was just hoping people could learn from my tragedy. Violent crime *can* and *does* happen. Our family never thought it would happen to us.

Nobody ever thinks it will...
I went to high school with Holly. She didn't think it would happen to her either:
http://www.hollyshouse.org/about.html
http://www.hollykdunn.com/

Anyway, this reminds me why I don't bother to get involved in these contentious forum discussions... this one just moved me personally.

I hope everyone stays safe on the trails and in daily life.

[Moboy56]

Amen to you brother. spot on statement!

[Dex]

This thread is apparently like every other political thread on the Internet. Nobody's going to change anyone else's mind and people are only interested in arguing why their point is right and the other one is wrong (primarily why the other point is wrong), instead of trying, for a moment, to look at it from the other person's point of view. I'm obviously guilty too. For the record, if you want to go into the world everyday with a plan for self-defense: great. If you want to go into the world everyday trusting your life to the plans of the universe: great. Either way doesn't affect me (unless I know you personally)... I was just hoping people could learn from my tragedy. Violent crime *can* and *does* happen. Our family never thought it would happen to us.

Nobody ever thinks it will...
I went to high school with Holly. She didn't think it would happen to her either:
http://www.hollyshouse.org/about.html
http://www.hollykdunn.com/

Anyway, this reminds me why I don't bother to get involved in these contentious forum discussions... this one just moved me personally.

I hope everyone stays safe on the trails and in daily life.

Well thought out and intelligent posts have changed my mind and influenced me. It doesn't happen every day but it has happened. Every now and then there is an itelligent post that resonates with me.
I don't have the perspective of: 'I never thought it would happen to me'. Whatever the 'it' is that has happened to others so it can happen to me - within reason.

[Colorado dreaming]

I am sorry to hear about such a tragedy. My thoughts are with you and your family.

I certainly understand that crime can and does happen. While not a comparable incident, I live in a good suburban neighborhood and have at least 6 cops living nearby, including one 4 houses down. My house was broken into while my roommate slept. I scared the intruder off by pulling into the garage - who knows what would have happened had I not gotten home at that time. With regard to crimes while hiking, two middle aged women were assaulted while hiking in Poudre Canyon (near Ft Collins) this summer. They fought the guy off with their hiking poles and he was arrested. I agree with other commentators that the best weapon is using that thing between our ears.

However, this topic made me wonder how often this type of thing (murder/assault - whether by 2 or 4 legged creatures) actually occurs in Colorado backcountry. I checked out the FBI crime stat site and it was not helpful - it only gave rates by state - not helfpul on determing backcountry crimes. I think it helps to be educated and informed to make good decisions (besides I am just curious). I searched the internet and could not find any statistics of murders/assaults occurring in the Colorado backcountry. I could not find any mention of anyone getting murdered in Colorado backcountry at any time in the last 100 years (doesn't mean it hasn't happened, just that I couldn't find any reference). I would also like to know of attacks by wild animals too in Colorado backcountry. If anyone has valid info/sources, I would appreciate if you post it.

[Jim Davies]

There was a female geology researcher killed by a guy on a back road near Fairplay a few years ago link. It was only borderline "backcountry" since it happened at a roadside campsite, but it's the most prominent assault case I've heard of (other than the two women you mentioned) in the time I've been hiking here (19 years).

[catfish hank]

There was a female geology researcher killed by a guy on a back road near Fairplay a few years ago

I remember this event like yesterday. An aspiring grad student just doing routine surveys when all went terribly wrong very fast. In broad daylight. I'm sure she never saw this coming. I have property just south of where this occurred and how this event unfolded is always fresh in my mind. The guy was a nut job who spent time in the state pen in Buena Vista. He had been camping below Buffalo Peaks for weeks which just on the other side of the range of where he was incarcerated. Strange behavior indeed. I thought this was too close to home until I had a gun drawn on me this year on my own property. It was an aggravated assault and I had every right to defend myself with deadly force. Not willing to go into details on a public forum. However this was before I purchased a 30-30. I take it with me every time I go up there now. I wont be the victim again. Bottom line is unless you personally have such an encounter you never foresee it happening. Once you have you never forget it.

[sunny1]

Appreciate the perspectives and experiences shared on this thread. This has really gotten me thinking over the past few days - particularly Chris Gerber's post and now Catfish Hank's post.
My self defense to date has been bear spray and generally hiking with buddies. I have gone out solo on busier peaks in the summer. Even on busy peaks, there are times when I was alone in forested areas - somewhat isolated.
I hiked with someone on this site this summer who is a federal officer who keeps his gun in his possession 24/7. He mentioned it to me first thing right after we met for the first time at a TH for a climb. Initially, I was a bit surprised, but not uncomfortable or freaked out. There are guns in my house, but I've never used them. I think it's time to learn, have been considering a concealed weapon permit for a few years - my thinking has again received a nudge toward action.

[Joonya]

I just found this thread. I've posted about this subject here before as well.

I almost never leave the house without a gun. I'm well trained and prepared in other ways as well - such as situational awareness , avoiding known problem areas and having less-lethal weapons available , etc. When living in MT , a gun in the woods was absolutely necessary , men , women and children carried them.

I'm truly not worried about being attacked while in the backcountry in CO. But I still prefer to be prepared for anything. My trip to the trail usually has me travelling to fuel stations , convenience stores , ATMs , etc ; and usually at the odd hours violent crimes often happen. Although crimes can and do occur at trailheads , it's more-so about the fact that your day's plans can change at any time and you can find yourself in a setting and situation you had not anticipated at all. A simple vehicle break-down is one fine example. Because I want to be prepared for any of the multitude of possible scenarios - and being attacked while on a trail is a low one - I wear a gun when I leave the house. I don't have the gun for any one setting , it's part of a kit to handle problems. I have the gun with me because I never know what may happen. But I absolutely refuse to leave it in a vehicle. If a person leaves the house with a gun , I urge them to please not leave it in a vehicle unattended at a trailhead. Vehicle break-ins at trailheads are not unusual - and arming an obvious criminal by leaving a gun in your vehicle is a poor choice IMO.

I carry in the CO backcountry because I will not leave my weapon unattended. If my gun is out of the safe , it is 100% under my control. I will not leave it at a remote trail-head , or a parking lot , or anywhere else I'm not. And if you leave the house with one , please consider not leaving it in the vehicle too ; despite thinking you won't need it where you're going - please.

-JC