Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

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billycox
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by billycox »

Depends on what you're doing. If you are exercising, then yeah acetyl co-a will be used for energy and co2 and water as by products. But, if you're sitting then acetyl co-a will form triglycerides.
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DArcyS
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by DArcyS »

LURE wrote:Not carbon dioxide and water?
How do you get CO2 and H2O out of acetate (CH3CO2)? That in itself suggests acetate is not converted directly to CO2 and H20 as your chemical reaction arrows imply. And the statement acetate is broken down to water and carbon dioxide must also be an oversimplification.
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jmanner
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by jmanner »



Had to be posted.
A man has got to know his limitations.-Dr. Jonathan Hemlock or Harry Callahan or something F' it: http://youtu.be/lpzqQst-Sg8

'Life is too short to ski groomers'

"That man's only desire was to stand, once only, on the summit of that glorious wedge of rock...I think anyone who loves the mountains as much as that can claim to be a mountaineer, too."-Hermann Buhl, Nanga Parbat Pilgrimage
mtn_hound
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by mtn_hound »

LURE wrote:
mtn_hound wrote: Every alcohol calorie you burn is a food calorie you don't need to burn (assuming the same activity level)
I'm not an expert, but I highly, highly doubt it's a 1:1 ratio like that. The correlations between alcohol and weight gain exist in certain drinking intervals, and others not so much. And where they do exist the increase in waist size isn't huge, but it certainly is there. I think the moderate drinking interval really doesn't have a correlation.

Nonetheless, I agree with that logic - just not that it's one to one - and that's why alcohol should be a factor in trying to lose weight. My point here is that people think drinking 150 calories of beer is like drinking 150 calories of soda. Which is more or less unequivocally false. Not to mention alcohol often causes drops in blood sugar.

There's also interesting research I once read on the ability of the body to garner any actual ATP from alcohol. It's not much if any, but I think it can actually utilize some of the energy in alcohol as ATP, I can't really rememver. Alcohol calories are more comparable to the calories in unleaded gasoline, calories are just a unit of energy, and gasoline has a ton of calories - our bodies just happen to have a special method of metabolizing ethanol, probably because it occurs naturally in foods in some instances. Whereas unleaded gasoline would do away with us pretty quickly.
Yeah we pretty much agree on this. Specifically regarding the 1:1 thing. The question is, what causes the deviation from 1:1? On a biochemical level, a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. On a performance level, there are likely other factors at play. The trick is figuring out what those are. That's why I said "assuming the same activity level".

For me anyway, increasing alcohol intake leads to decreased activity. Others mentioned the inspiration to order pizza, or other bad dietary choices. So it's difficult to tease out cause and effect in people.

I only watched a bit of justiner's cool video, but I'd bet most of those charts were derived from studies on mice or other animals, where you can control for some of the confounding variables people introduce. Those are good for learning about mechanisms, but can have limitations in their applicability to people. Observing the effects of different diets, alcohol intake, etc. on people solves the applicability problem but reintroduces confounding variables. You really need to look at both lines of evidence to get as close as possible to the "correct" answer.
billycox
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by billycox »

co2 and water are by products of the oxidation of hydrocarbons.
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LURE
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by LURE »

DArcyS wrote:
LURE wrote:Not carbon dioxide and water?
How do you get CO2 and H2O out of acetate (CH3CO2)? That in itself suggests acetate is not converted directly to CO2 and H20 as your chemical reaction arrows imply. And the statement acetate is broken down to water and carbon dioxide must also be an oversimplification.
Just look at the picture I posted I little longer and read the words.

It might be a little over simplifed. But CO2 and water suggest something was burned. LIkely the step meaning the acetate was used for energy.

http://www.livestrong.com/video/1008923 ... uman-body/

I'm kind of skeptical that acetate can so easily turn into triglycerides if all your doing is "not moving". But I'm not an expert in o chem and physiology, at all.

Am I correct that triglycerides are not exactly a contributor of weight gain, maybe correlated with? Rather just a bad lipid that floats around in your blood and can get stored within your tissues?
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JaredJohnson
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by JaredJohnson »

bonehead wrote:Since you have stated your goal in public
you have now made this a matter of honor.
Make all of your eating/exercise choices with
that in mind and you will succeed in that goal.
I like this :)
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JaredJohnson
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by JaredJohnson »

LURE wrote: Am I correct that triglycerides are not exactly a contributor of weight gain, maybe correlated with? Rather just a bad lipid that floats around in your blood and can get stored within your tissues?
If nothing else, alcohol is a depressant, and is likely to interfere with your motivation to train. Then again a nightcap to help one sleep might have a net benefit, if all the sciency stuff really does mean it'll never be converted to fat, or be burned instead of something else that would then be converted to fat. I know nothing of that, but when I need help sleeping I use melatonin, so I tend to avoid alcohol :P
mtn_hound
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by mtn_hound »

DArcyS wrote:
LURE wrote:Not carbon dioxide and water?
How do you get CO2 and H2O out of acetate (CH3CO2)? That in itself suggests acetate is not converted directly to CO2 and H20 as your chemical reaction arrows imply. And the statement acetate is broken down to water and carbon dioxide must also be an oversimplification.
Aerobic metabolism. You need to add oxygen to make the reaction balance.

4CH3CO2 + 7O2 ---> 8CO2 + 6H2O

EDIT: Your body manufactures all sorts of intermediate byproducts of incomplete metabolism (notably lactate) when anaerobic. When you stop anaerobic activity, those byproducts are eventually converted the rest of the way to CO2 and H2O.
Last edited by mtn_hound on Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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justiner
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by justiner »

mtn_hound wrote: Yeah we pretty much agree on this. Specifically regarding the 1:1 thing. The question is, what causes the deviation from 1:1? On a biochemical level, a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. On a performance level, there are likely other factors at play. The trick is figuring out what those are. That's why I said "assuming the same activity level".
It's insulin levels. One of the side effects of drinking too much booze/eating too much sugar is insulin resistance - ie Type 2 Diabetes. That's why a calorie is NOT a calorie - some of it will be converted to fat, even though you're not overconsuming. Here's a much shorter, much simpler video (I'm not a biochemist either, ya know)




mtn_hound wrote: I only watched a bit of justiner's cool video, but I'd bet most of those charts were derived from studies on mice or other animals, where you can control for some of the confounding variables people introduce. Those are good for learning about mechanisms, but can have limitations in their applicability to people.
There's lots of charts, but I believe they're all from human activity - ie: people ARE fatter today than 50 years ago; people ARE eating more sugar than 50 years ago. People, in general, are EATING more than 50 years ago. There IS more sugar in our food than 50 years ago. 9% of the population has Type 2 Diabetes; 40% are pre-diabetic. Blame Nixon! :)
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susanjoypaul
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by susanjoypaul »

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Last edited by susanjoypaul on Sat Nov 04, 2017 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LURE
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by LURE »

JaredJohnson wrote:
LURE wrote: Am I correct that triglycerides are not exactly a contributor of weight gain, maybe correlated with? Rather just a bad lipid that floats around in your blood and can get stored within your tissues?
If nothing else, alcohol is a depressant, and is likely to interfere with your motivation to train. Then again a nightcap to help one sleep might have a net benefit, if all the sciency stuff really does mean it'll never be converted to fat, or be burned instead of something else that would then be converted to fat. I know nothing of that, but when I need help sleeping I use melatonin, so I tend to avoid alcohol :P
Well despite our squabbling, which sorry, has gone beyond the needs of this topic you posted, I think we can all agree, it's best to just limit or avoid alcohol. Weirdly, I have a sweet spot where alcohol makes it difficult for me to fall asleep somewhere in like the 3-6 drinks range it seems, depending on rate of intake of course. Really any amount can make it harder for me, everyone responds to things a tad different sometimes.

Anyway, I went down the route of this alcohol calories business cause I've always found it very interesting, and since it's somewhat relevant. Didn't mean to make the thread go on too much a tangent.
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