Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

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LURE
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by LURE »

justiner wrote:
mtn_hound wrote: Yeah we pretty much agree on this. Specifically regarding the 1:1 thing. The question is, what causes the deviation from 1:1? On a biochemical level, a calorie is a calorie is a calorie. On a performance level, there are likely other factors at play. The trick is figuring out what those are. That's why I said "assuming the same activity level".
It's insulin levels. One of the side effects of drinking too much booze/eating too much sugar is insulin resistance - ie Type 2 Diabetes. That's why a calorie is NOT a calorie - some of it will be converted to fat, even though you're not overconsuming. Here's a much shorter, much simpler video (I'm not a biochemist either, ya know)
Justiner, it seems like you're saying alcohol and sugar are the same thing. They aren't. Just cause booze is made from sugars doesn't make it sugar. It's a different compound from the "-oses" - e.g., fructose, sucrose, glucose. And does not have the same effects on the body as sugars do. Research actually shows that it drops blood sugar levels. Which would not lead insulin resistance, but would be bad news for diabetics.
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by justiner »

No, sugar and alchohol are not the same, but they're both handled by the liver, and take very similar pathways to be processed - the outcome is the same, except sugar don't getcha drunk! because the alchohol that gets you drunk is because of the same amount that gets metabolized in the brain, and not in the liver. I was taught, I believe that ALL alchohol is metabolized in the liver, and once it's processed, that's when you're not drunk anymore - the mere, like presence of alchohol in your body is what causes drunkiness. That was a big oversimplification. I mean, it's crazy right?! We've been lied to. Doctors have been lied to while in school. Select papers were taken as the Truth (Seven Countries), and again it's oversimplification of a large problem, as the data was in fact, wrong.

I have to refer to that video once again,

https://youtu.be/dBnniua6-oM?t=1h8m40s

which lists the maladies caused by excess drinking, and excess sugar intake. They share a lot of similarities, including the path towards removing both of them from your system.
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by justiner »

I'm kind of amazed no one has asked, "well, why do we suck on gels when we work out, or take sports drinks?, aren't those sugars, and baaaaaaad for us?" that's covered in the video too:

https://youtu.be/dBnniua6-oM?t=1h11m43s


Exercise "makes the TCA cycle runs faster, detoxifies fructose, improves hepatic insulin sensitivity" (you burn it before it becomes fat) - that's what's meant by a "higher metabolism".
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DArcyS
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by DArcyS »

billycox wrote:co2 and water are by products of the oxidation of hydrocarbons.
Well, sure, but I wanted to make sure LURE wasn't suggesting acetate is magically cleaved to CO2 and H20 and hence outside of a metabolic process.
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LURE
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by LURE »

justiner wrote:No, sugar and alchohol are not the same, but they're both handled by the liver, and take very similar pathways to be processed - the outcome is the same, except sugar don't getcha drunk! because the alchohol that gets you drunk is because of the same amount that gets metabolized in the brain, and not in the liver. I was taught, I believe that ALL alchohol is metabolized in the liver, and once it's processed, that's when you're not drunk anymore - the mere, like presence of alchohol in your body is what causes drunkiness. That was a big oversimplification. I mean, it's crazy right?! We've been lied to. Doctors have been lied to while in school. Select papers were taken as the Truth (Seven Countries), and again it's oversimplification of a large problem, as the data was in fact, wrong.

I have to refer to that video once again,

https://youtu.be/dBnniua6-oM?t=1h8m40s

which lists the maladies caused by excess drinking, and excess sugar intake. They share a lot of similarities, including the path towards removing both of them from your system.
I still think there is a link missing link in your logic. Alcohol, even if it didn't get you drunk, does not do the same thing to your body that sugar does.

The outcome is not the same. Just cause they're both handled by the liver doesn't mean they're doing the same thing to the body. They're detrimental in different ways. I think the doctors and literature actually agree on this and your taking a logic leap to say I'm incorrect and that we've all been lied to. Show me some literature that says liquor gives people diabetes - this is your logic leap here in assuming that sugar and booze do the same thing - cause I just don't think it's true.
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by mtn_hound »

DArcyS wrote:
billycox wrote:co2 and water are by products of the oxidation of hydrocarbons.
Well, sure, but I wanted to make sure LURE wasn't suggesting acetate is magically cleaved to CO2 and H20 and hence outside of a metabolic process.
Lure had it right. All chemistry seems like magic if you don't understand it.
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by LURE »

I did some reading in the boring late afternoon work hours. Justiner, you are correct and I was incorrect. Alcohol has been linked to Type II. Several caveats though. They only find the link in binge drinking. The other big caveat here is they believe it's due to the alcohol causing inflammation of the pancreas thereby damaging them over time. The Type II which they link to sugar is more linked to weight gain and overworked pancreas I believe.

Different compounds harming the body via different mechanisms. That does not make them the same. Nor does it mean they will have all of the same effects on the body. Anything that harms the pancreas can cause Type II. If I get a tumor on my pancreas I'll likely get Type II diabetes. Is the cancer, then, also just like sugar?

If I get hit in the head with a brick versus a hammer are the brick and the hammer the same thing? They both bashed my head in right? So they must be the same thing.
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by TallGrass »

Environment: Are home and or work more of a headwind or tailwind to accomplishing your goals? It's harder if the person next to you is sedentary and eats unhealthfully. Easier if others around you complement your goals.

Fluids: I agree neither soda nor alcohol should be staples, but they can be fine as occasionals like one Sunday Football Beer. Whether to go with little or with none-at-all is different for each person. My primary drink is water, and if I'm "hungry" I'll drink first. If that takes care of it, I was probably just thirsty not hungry. Tea (hot or cold) and coffee are nice toss in the mix for flavor.

Brother in Arms: It's easier if you can find someone in town with similar goals who you can train with, to keep on track and keep motivated. Better still if you can build a team, whether it's a group that knows each other, or someone at work and another at the gym and another at ...

Convenience: Make the good convenient and the bad cumbersome. Healthy snacks are at home, but to have a beer or coke you'd have to get in your car and drive somewhere. Cook in scale so it's just as if not easier to reheat healthy leftovers than to fix something less so.

Celebrate: ... the small victories. They're what add up to the big ones.
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by CheapCigarMan »

80% is diet. You are what you eat.

Burn The Fat, Feed The Muscle, Tom Venuto

It's science not fad. It's the science behind the commonsense.
Best single source resource on nutrition and the science behind it I have found.
Same research and science that the Anschutz Health and Wellness Center, University of Colorado Anschutz Medical Campus teaches.
I should be on a mountain
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by justiner »

The cover of that book features half naked, fake-tanned, oiled and shaven bare chested people with unrealistic body fat % for anyone except those predisposed with genetic gifts or are on temporary, extremely unhealthy diets right before a fitness modeling competition. If any type of cover SCREAMS, b.s., it would be this one.
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by LarryM »

With the caveat that everyone is different, what worked for me (I lost 40 plus pounds twice* and can climb 14ers at a fast for a hiker, slow for a runner pace):

Initially, at least, what worked for me was dietary changes (the first time overly restrictive calorically, which was a mistake) combined with strength training with a little bit of aerobic exercise.

Once I had reached a reasonable weight and built some muscle (mainly lower body, partly because of genetic predisposition and partly because of choices in focus) I upped the aerobic exercise considerably, and eventually stopped weight training completely (not sure I'd recommend the latter - some time in the weight room is a nice supplement). The Steve House / high aerobic base / run or at least hike up hill as much as possible, advice is dead on correct - but maybe not when you first start out with an extra 50 pounds or so.

As for wanting the transformation to happen quickly ... there are well known trade offs, i.e., losing it too quickly it' can be harder to keep it off, and it depends upon individual metabolism, but, speaking for myself, the first time I lost a lot of weight (about 60 pounds) I went from sedentary and fat to running a (short) Triathlon in about 7 months, and the second time (40 pounds) went from fat and sedentary to hiking 14ers quickly in less than a year. So it is doable.

*Yes, the fact that I had to lose those 40 plus pounds twice arguably undercuts my advice someone. The lifestyle changes didn't fully take the first time.
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Re: Training strategy for an obese mountaineer

Post by CheapCigarMan »

justiner wrote:The cover of that book features half naked, fake-tanned, oiled and shaven bare chested people with unrealistic body fat % for anyone except those predisposed with genetic gifts or are on temporary, extremely unhealthy diets right before a fitness modeling competition. If any type of cover SCREAMS, b.s., it would be this one.
Never judge a book by its cover.
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