What's the best type of training?

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justiner
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Re: What's the best type of training?

Post by justiner » Wed Jan 13, 2021 9:57 am

That seems pretty reasonable, Tim - as Peter (and others) hinted, enjoyment is a big part of sticking to training,

The surprise from the athlete at just how low an effort one needs to do to keep at HR 1/2 is pretty usual. All the way back when Maffetone was training Mark Allen with one of the first "portable" HRM's and making that dude walk on his runs. I think Scott Johnston also talks about making his CX ski athletes take off their skis and walk as well, since their HR's were going up too high. Or when western coaches go to Kenya to observe their training programs and see the athletes mostly shuffle run at practices, maintaining like a 9:00 pace - those same athletes that can hold a ~5:00 pace for a whole marathon. The, "to go fast, one must go slow" is a very very hard idea to even believe - and again: why a book like TFTNA was written. It's an even harder concept for a climber who does these sorts of workouts,



to think that anything but explosive, max effort will do anything. You can get a little ways just running without worrying about HR's or whatever, but you'll hit a plateau. Is this plateau hitting relevant to 14er peak baggers. Yah, probably not. Unless you're training to PR the Pikes Peak Marathon or something? Going for Andrew's record? No one is going to run 30 mpw at Zone 1/2 for 6 months for the explicit reason to crush Beirdstadt and a handful of other 14ers in the summer. Y'all got lives. But if you wanted to, well: what's a coach for except keep you accountable towards your goals and make you do things you'd rather not, as it's WAY funner to do the other thing?
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Re: What's the best type of training?

Post by ekalina » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:04 am

Good feedback, Tim. I can't deny that running in Z2 is not as exciting as my usual approach. However, the slower pace does acquire a sort of zen-like quality to it for me after the first 20 min or so. Like you suggested, if I actually want to run/jog in Z2, it has to be on flat terrain. I do plan to incorporate some trail "runs" since that increases the level of excitement, but I'll need to hike the uphills. I'm not too worried about having to walk; as you said, as long as my HR is in Z1-Z2, there should still be an aerobic benefit.

I do not expect that this type of base work will make me fast, but I am hopeful that over time (probably measured in the span of months rather than days/weeks), it will increase my endurance. For speed, I agree that a measured amount of Z4 would be needed, on top of the aerobic base. But I need to build that base first.
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Re: What's the best type of training?

Post by Dave B » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:14 am

I did a 12 week TFTUA training block for a trail half marathon last summer. End result: I hated it and saw very little improvement in aerobic pace (about 20 sec/mile at AeT), I was slow AF when I started and slow AF minus 20 seconds when it ended. More importantly, training become another boring chore I had to do, never fun, never interesting, always constrained and measured. I'll not do it again.

Variety is important. Yes, TFTUA includes higher intensity later on, but the base period is f*cking boring. Maybe I'll revisit if I have a more appropriate multi-day goal where a huge aerobic base is more important. Until then, I'm gonna go have fun running as fast as I feel like, cycling, and even doing a good bit of HIIT - it makes me good in the feels.
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Re: What's the best type of training?

Post by Jorts » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:21 am

With regards to running, I'm not Joe Gray or the DeMoor brothers, but I have a lot of experience and I'm reasonably fast.

Andrew Skurka's summary of Roche's approach for going far, fast works - I've been following an analog of it for years. It's particularly relevant to running and fast hiking where you have to account for impact forces and fatigue:
https://andrewskurka.com/complete-train ... g-summary/

And studies have been done comparing various training approaches. This study was one of my favorites because it directly compares long slow distance, threshold training, HIIT, and polarization. Spoiler, polarization works best for dramatic improvements in measurable variables related to being faster. And too much HIIT is awful for you.
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 ... 00033/full

Fact of the matter is, as has been driven into the ground ad nauseam, most people are not well trained trying to get faster. Most are undertrained. If you're undertrained, just be consistent and move more.

But if you're one of those people who is well trained trying to get faster, check out the resources I cited above.
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Re: What's the best type of training?

Post by highpilgrim » Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:21 am

Civics.
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Re: What's the best type of training?

Post by Vincopotamus » Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:30 pm

Plugugly wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:44 pm
Scott P wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:09 am
Jbrow327 wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:10 pm


True. But I don't have any winter ascent experience.
I'm looking for a good peakbagging "list" if you will. Something for a beginner like myself. 7ers, 8ers, etc.
I'm sure the Wasatch has plenty.
You have already been given a list of peaks several times that are next to SLC that require no winter experience. Why don't you go read the threads you already started and stop asking the same s
questions over and over again?
Why talk to him like you're a dick? You're usually one of the most helpful on here. Go back to bed.
If you were to browse Jbrow327's profile, you'd find that he often starts new threads asking very similar questions:

- Mar 8, 2020: Slc vs denver mountains. Utah vs Colorado mountains.
- May 10, 2020: How does the Wasatch range in Utah compare to other ranges in the west?
- Jul 5, 2020: Best Utah peakbagging list
- Sep 23, 2020: Good peaks to bag in Utah.
- Jan 4, 2021: Utah vs Colorado.

and most recently,
- Jan 13, 2021: Wasatch peaks.

Scott has shared his knowledge in each, apparently going in one ear and out the other.






Honorable mention for this thread being oddly akin to his July 10 How do I practice climbing peaks?
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Re: What's the best type of training?

Post by pvnisher » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:21 am

Lol. Sounds like buzzfeed article clickbait titles.
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Re: What's the best type of training?

Post by 12ersRule » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:08 am

pvnisher wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:21 am
Lol. Sounds like buzzfeed article clickbait titles.
10 things that you don't already know about Wasatch peaks that may surprise you. :shock:
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Re: What's the best type of training?

Post by Plugugly » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:20 am

Vincopotamus wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:30 pm
Plugugly wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:44 pm
Scott P wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:09 am


You have already been given a list of peaks several times that are next to SLC that require no winter experience. Why don't you go read the threads you already started and stop asking the same s
questions over and over again?
Why talk to him like you're a dick? You're usually one of the most helpful on here. Go back to bed.
If you were to browse Jbrow327's profile, you'd find that he often starts new threads asking very similar questions:

- Mar 8, 2020: Slc vs denver mountains. Utah vs Colorado mountains.
- May 10, 2020: How does the Wasatch range in Utah compare to other ranges in the west?
- Jul 5, 2020: Best Utah peakbagging list
- Sep 23, 2020: Good peaks to bag in Utah.
- Jan 4, 2021: Utah vs Colorado.

and most recently,
- Jan 13, 2021: Wasatch peaks.

Scott has shared his knowledge in each, apparently going in one ear and out the other.






Honorable mention for this thread being oddly akin to his July 10 How do I practice climbing peaks?
So don't answer him if you don't want to, who cares? Anyone who answers is engaged. And you went so far as to research his post history. So are the posts on "ignore user" and whatever on CaptCO more important than this post? He's civil, right? I know I've read every reply on this thread and received good information.
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Re: What's the best type of training?

Post by Gandalf69 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:32 am

Put a picture of whatever 14er you want to summit next summer somewhere you see it alot. The best training is to get yourself mentally ready each and every day for whatever you want to accomplish. In marathons about 30 percent is physical, 70 percent is mental. While being in shape helps, your mind must be ready for whatever you plan on doing. Its literally mind over matter, after not summiting Capitol Peak due to bad weather in 2019, I looked at a picture of the peak every day, summer 2020, 4 successful summits. I know it sounds cheesy but give it a try
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Re: What's the best type of training?

Post by timisimaginary » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:33 pm

Dave B wrote:
Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:14 am
I did a 12 week TFTUA training block for a trail half marathon last summer. End result: I hated it and saw very little improvement in aerobic pace (about 20 sec/mile at AeT), I was slow AF when I started and slow AF minus 20 seconds when it ended. More importantly, training become another boring chore I had to do, never fun, never interesting, always constrained and measured. I'll not do it again.

Variety is important. Yes, TFTUA includes higher intensity later on, but the base period is f*cking boring. Maybe I'll revisit if I have a more appropriate multi-day goal where a huge aerobic base is more important. Until then, I'm gonna go have fun running as fast as I feel like, cycling, and even doing a good bit of HIIT - it makes me good in the feels.
one thing i will say: after i started doing more hiking and less running (thereby increasing my "base training" without even realizing it) i got noticeably faster and started hitting PRs i never thought i'd get. i took up hiking in large part because i was getting hurt too much from running. i tried triathlons for a while for variety, but i absolutely hate swim training with a vengeance and didn't have enough safe places to go cycling to keep it interesting. so i decided to go with hiking, figuring it would be easier on my body while keeping me active. i didn't know anything about heart rate zones, 80/20 training, or any of that stuff. i just started replacing shorter, faster runs (which i'm sure i was doing at high HR zones) with longer, slower hikes that inherently stayed in those lower zones, so i was base training without even knowing it.

so i do believe base training works, and will make you faster in the long run. you just have to figure out a way to do it that is actually enjoyable so that you'll want to do it often enough and for long enough periods to see the effect. for me personally, running slowly enough on flat terrain to stay in the base zone is just not enjoyable, but hiking is, so that's what i'm sticking with. for someone else, it could be skiing or cycling or any number of other activities that aren't as intense as running.

as a bonus, i also found that hiking significantly improved the strength and recovery abilities of my lower legs, so not only did i get faster, i can also now run further and more often than i could before with fewer injuries.
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Re: What's the best type of training?

Post by Dave B » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:00 pm

timisimaginary wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:33 pm

one thing i will say: after i started doing more hiking and less running (thereby increasing my "base training" without even realizing it) i got noticeably faster and started hitting PRs i never thought i'd get. i took up hiking in large part because i was getting hurt too much from running. i tried triathlons for a while for variety, but i absolutely hate swim training with a vengeance and didn't have enough safe places to go cycling to keep it interesting. so i decided to go with hiking, figuring it would be easier on my body while keeping me active. i didn't know anything about heart rate zones, 80/20 training, or any of that stuff. i just started replacing shorter, faster runs (which i'm sure i was doing at high HR zones) with longer, slower hikes that inherently stayed in those lower zones, so i was base training without even knowing it.

so i do believe base training works, and will make you faster in the long run. you just have to figure out a way to do it that is actually enjoyable so that you'll want to do it often enough and for long enough periods to see the effect. for me personally, running slowly enough on flat terrain to stay in the base zone is just not enjoyable, but hiking is, so that's what i'm sticking with. for someone else, it could be skiing or cycling or any number of other activities that aren't as intense as running.

as a bonus, i also found that hiking significantly improved the strength and recovery abilities of my lower legs, so not only did i get faster, i can also now run further and more often than i could before with fewer injuries.
I'm with you 100%, base training is key but I think base training means a lot of different things to different people. Youtube runners like Jason Fitzgerald and Sage Canaday have a much higher intensity perspective on base training and seem to promote using RPE more than HR, my PT here in Fort Collins who's a consistent top-5 finisher in e.g. Black Squirrel half marathon recommends the same thing. For me, as a relatively large framed guy and even with a high AeT (158 from multiple drift tests), running in the TFTUA method means I have to run at about a 13-13:30 pace. Eff that, I'll stick with hiking, rucking, or cycling for my Z1 and Z2 training and run at what feels fun, otherwise I can't motivate to get out running.

The other thing that really turned me off on TFTUA is how much they poo-poo cycling. I get the reasoning for this, as it's not weight bearing and trains different motor patterns than running or uphill hiking, but it's also a great low impact way to get a high volume of Z1/Z2. I can only run 3x a week before things start hurting, so having cycling is pretty important for me. The puritanical and absolutely no shortcuts approach is great for a subset of people with an abundance of time and/or motivation. I have one or the other in variable amounts on any given day, and I just have to dig into the self-motivation pool a little too much to keep motivated to train boringly.
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