Risk Tolerance - Lightning

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What is your personal risk tolerance with respect to lightning above treeline?

I don't venture above treeline if NWS says there's a chance of rain. I can wait for a better day.
8
7%
If I see a rain cloud, I think pretty seriously about hanging around treeline to watch it develop.
19
17%
Rain is fine, but any thunder at all freaks me out.
44
40%
A few thunder gurgles don't bother me, but if I hear a crackle or a boom I'm turning around or finding shelter.
29
26%
Thunder is just sound. Sound never killed anyone in the mountains.
3
3%
As long as the lightning doesn't hit me, I'm good. Triggering a fight or flight response speeds your pace and sharpens your senses; it's science.
3
3%
I am Zeus. I am the lightning. Singing ice axes are my hymns.
5
5%
 
Total votes: 111
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Bale
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by Bale »

I have had my rope buzzing and hair standing on end high on the Grand Teton, waiting for the bolt that never came. I used to spend quite a bit of time in the High Uintas and have seen enough lightning to scare me straight. You folks can have July;)
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by climbingcue »

My first attempt on Dallas, we were at the final 60 ft pitch at 9:40 am heard thunder very close. We all agreed our attempt was over at that point, came back two weeks later and the thunder came at 11:40am. This time we had already rapped off the summit. Both times we had to deal with rain and grapple most the way back to the car. We were all happy to not be on the super exposed summit of Dallas when it got really bad.

I also try to be off the summit long before noon from June-September.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by Urban Snowshoer »

Many years ago I got caught in an open area, though not a 14er, during a thunderstorm and it reached the point where I had to "assume the position" and crouch.

I don't mind hiking in rain--that is what rain gear is for--as long as it the rain itself doesn't create safety issues: e.g. wet rock on highly exposed terrain.

However, getting caught in a storm where you're unprotected and lightning is close enough to "assume the position" and wonder whether you're going to get hit is not an experience I care to repeat.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by terrysrunning »

Lots of variables and my brain is still working it out. I've spent a lot of time thinking about it because I'm doing the Hardrock 100 this year, and it's not the sort of thing I can just be like "oh, I'll just come back tomorrow" or "I'll just start early and beat the storms", so I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to do when I find myself having to decide. Intellectually, I'm aware that, even on the ridge or peak in a storm, your odds of getting hit are very low. And I can descend fast AF compared to most (maybe not quite as fast as Justiner but close). But sometimes there's not a good direct route down no matter your skills. And some storms have a strike or thunder every few minutes, and some have it continuously for half an hour. And regardless of how much my brain knows it'll probably be ok, it's scary AF and I've had a close call and don't care to repeat the experience.
So, sitting here on my phone, I can tell you unless the forecast or appearance looks like a pretty significant storm, I'd press on in the race. What I'll actually do when I hear the thunder is a whole different thing. In normal circumstances, I'd say my tolerance is higher than normal, but probably nowhere near the Long Rangers and Kirks of the world who have been up there enough to be used to it a little more.
Oh, and P.S., "assuming the position" is utterly worthless and a distraction from actually getting to a safer area. Google it and you'll find an the recent credible articles agree on that. Same with ditching your poles, but at least that's not going to hurt you. Unless you fall and die because you don't have them... which is a bigger risk than lightning.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by mtree »

People's perception and knowledge of lightning is frightening.
Crouching, standing, walking or running. It doesn't matter. Your height relative to a lightning bolt is insignificant. I say RUN! Get away from it or to cover as quickly as possible. Its not like someone is shooting at you!
Lightning doesn't necessarily strike the tallest object. In fact, it commonly just hits the ground. What is tallest is relative to the surroundings in a VAST area...like a mountain. So, if you're over 6'5", stop ducking. The ceiling isn't as close as you think.
Carrying trekking poles or a golf club doesn't matter either. The size of that conductor you're holding is insignificant. You could waltz around waving a metal rake in the air and it won't increase your chances of getting zapped. However, high conductivity metal attached to your body might be a sticky situation if you get struck. Then again, that would be the least of your worries.
Most people who have been struck by lightning aren't taking a direct hit. The electricity usually travels in an arc or across the ground and gets you. That's why its not uncommon to hear of multiple people struck the by the same "bolt". And it may not even travel in a straight line or even a single line or a line at all.
The actual knowledge of lightning is very limited and there are alot of persistent myths and bad "science" out there. Most of what you hear or read are just theories or made up crap. Kinda hard to study something of that magnitude in a lab. So, the only good advice is to get out of the lightning as quickly as possible. Forget about all the other nonsense. Nothing else matters.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by TakeMeToYourSummit »

I've played in the rain more than a few times (not ideal, but it happens). Thunder on the other hand can get rather scary. A couple summers ago I went for Snowmass Peak (13er) & Hagerman from Lead King Basin. The weather was holding nicely; mainly a few wispy clouds here and there. I worked my way up the mixed snow & rock couloir on the south face of the duo. On the Snowmass summit I noticed the clouds had gathered a bit more but still felt good about my day. I committed to the class 3 & 4 scramble to Hagerman. Above the worst of the scrambling I heard it... the buzzing! Considering what I had just come up - I made the decision to continue to the top since the route down the other side would in theory be quicker. I hit the summit snapped 2 pictures & kept running the ridge. Once I spotted a candy cane shaped snow patch below me I went ahead & got the axe out quickly. Speedy, but controlled, I zipped down a few snow patches with a little scramble in between. I had never been happier to reach treeline!
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by mtree »

Here's a funny thought. Being below treeline may not be any safer than above it if the storm and/or lightning is hitting the forest area. That's just another myth. It depends where the storm activity is and the direction its moving. I can't count the number of times I've seen smoldering trees or trunks that have been blown apart from lightning. That's an entirely different problem to worry about. The forest canopy just makes us feel safer. Kinda like crawling under the covers if you're scared. Again, the height of those trees doesn't matter. Insignificant compared to a bolt of lightning.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by DArcyS »

A couple of my criteria:

1) I get up early to start my hike. I'm commonly on the trail before 6am in the summer and reach the summit by 10am (although this is mostly for 13ers where there's less elevation, and because I've doing this for decades, I might tend to move a little faster than the beginner on the 14er.)

2) I save the hard peaks for when I know there's virtually no chance of t-storms, which includes taking vacation days to climb peaks mid-week. This also means avoiding the San Juans, if I can help it, the last week of July and the first week of August when the monsoon peaks. It also means taking your time to finish a peak list, which prevents you from pushing into bad weather because a peak list is driving you to do so.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by TheIrishYeti »

Mmm this gives me the warm fuzzy memories of sitting on the Mt Russel summit block and watching bluebird skies turn to black in the time in took my partner to climb the last pitch of fishhook arete. It was about 10am, forecast was for perfect clear skies, and there were no signs of trouble before that last 30 mins. Had fun running the ridgeline to the downclimb and scree surfing the hail and rock filled gully, to the open plateau between Russell and Whitney, where all the gear on my harness was popping and rattling, and the ridgeline next to me was getting lit up like a christmas tree every 5 minutes. Biggest takeaway for me was that while you can plan all you want, and get there early, and follow the rules...nothing is better than the ability to get out of dodge ASAP.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by ekalina »

While lightning doesn't always strike the tallest object, your risk is greater if you are on a relative high point, like a summit or a ridge. Lightning is preceded by an upward-moving channel of charge from the ground (called a streamer) that connects with an oppositely-charged channel descending from cloud base (called a stepped leader). The visual appearance of lightning occurs after a streamer and stepped leader meet.

In a thunderstorm, as charge builds before a lightning strike, multiple streamers may emanate upward from different objects. The streamer that meets the stepped leader first will complete the pathway between the cloud and the ground and result in a lightning flash. Terrain features or objects that are higher than their surroundings are more likely to initiate streamers, and those streamers are more likely to be "successful," since they are closer to the descending stepped leader.

So you want to avoid being on or near the tallest terrain features when in a thunderstorm. The reason a forest of relatively uniform height is safer than a summit is because the streamers from various trees would initiate from about the same height, making it less likely that the particular trees you happen to be standing near get struck. You don't want to stand near a single, isolated tree or small group of trees, for the reasons discussed above.

This website from NOAA has more information: https://www.nssl.noaa.gov/education/svr ... tning/faq/
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by Scott P »

ekalina wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 1:36 pm While lightning doesn't always strike the tallest object, your risk is greater if you are on a relative high point, like a summit or a ridge.....

This website from NOAA has more information: https://www.nssl.noaa.gov/education/svr ... tning/faq/
Great synopsis. Being below timberline doesn't always make you safe just as you mention.

August 4 1991 was the second and last time I ever got shocked by lightning. My companions and I just got a light shock, but two others were killed by the same storm.

I was a (17 year old) backpacking guide at Camp Evergreen in the Uinta Mountains of Utah. I was camped in thick timber with a group of scouts on a ridge of Deadman Mountain at a place we knew as Scout Rock. I think there were eight of us? An intense thunderstorm rolled though with lots of rain and lightning. Lightning hit a tree near the tents and partially exploded the tree. It also shocked us (literally). Luckily none of us took a direct hit or were close enough to the tree to do any damage.

We were out backpacking, but the same intense thundercell hit the main camp as well. The lifeguard went up the lifeguard tower to make sure everyone was off the lake because of the thunderstorm. The lifeguard tower got hit and knocked him unconscious. He survived and apparently had no permanent injuries.

The same massive thunderstorm also moved well to the east of us and hit a group of scouts camped at Island Lake. While where I was we only were pelted with rain, Island Lake got hit with hail. Four scouts sought shelter under a pine tree to escape getting pelted by hail. Lightning struck the tree. Two of the scouts were killed and a third seriously injured. (I thought three scouts were killed, but I was able to find the news story and it appears that the third scout survived).

Here is the news story if anyone wants to read it:

https://apnews.com/article/2f641ae1f1ff ... 3012990507

Anyway, to sum it up, this same thunderstorm (or series of thunderstorms) shocked our group when lightning hit a tree, knocked the lifeguard out at Lake Evergreen when lightning hit the tree, and hit a tree at Island Lake killing two people and severely injuring a third. I don't know how often one storm produces three different lightning bolts that hit or shocked three different locations of people, but it happened this time. Perhaps the most important thing to mention though is that all of us were below timberline. Scout Rock is at about 9850 feet elevation; Lake Evergreen is at 8860 feet elevation; and Island Lake is at 10,777 feet elevation. Timberline in the Uinta Mountains is usually around 11,000 feet.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by mtree »

ekalina wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 1:36 pm While lightning doesn't always strike the tallest object, your risk is greater if you are on a relative high point, like a summit or a ridge. Lightning is preceded by an upward-moving channel of charge from the ground (called a streamer) that connects with an oppositely-charged channel descending from cloud base (called a stepped leader). The visual appearance of lightning occurs after a streamer and stepped leader meet.

In a thunderstorm, as charge builds before a lightning strike, multiple streamers may emanate upward from different objects. The streamer that meets the stepped leader first will complete the pathway between the cloud and the ground and result in a lightning flash. Terrain features or objects that are higher than their surroundings are more likely to initiate streamers, and those streamers are more likely to be "successful," since they are closer to the descending stepped leader.

So you want to avoid being on or near the tallest terrain features when in a thunderstorm. The reason a forest of relatively uniform height is safer than a summit is because the streamers from various trees would initiate from about the same height, making it less likely that the particular trees you happen to be standing near get struck. You don't want to stand near a single, isolated tree or small group of trees, for the reasons discussed above.

This website from NOAA has more information: https://www.nssl.noaa.gov/education/svr ... tning/faq/
This is the typical kind of info taken completely out of context. You can't and won't see streamers or leaders before you get zapped so get that gobbly gook out of your head. Can you feel, see or hear the charged atmosphere around you? Maybe. Its not a comfy feeling. Guess what? There's only one thing you can do. Get away from it. Fast.

Avoid the tallest what? Height is relative. Put another way, so is distance. As for a uniform height, it doesn't matter. A ridgeline may be a relatively uniform height. Same with a meadow. So what height is significant in relation to a bolt of lighting from 30,000 feet? The summit 100 feet above a ridgeline only 300 feet away? Not so much. Odds are the ridgeline is just as likely to get hit as the summit. The summit in relation to the forest floor 3000 feet below and a mile away? I'd think maybe so. In that case get to the forest floor. But there's one caveat...

If there's a storm over the forest I'm not running from the mountaintop into it. What matters is WHERE the storm is located and what direction is it heading. Or, in some cases, growing.

Think of lightning like this. You are walking down a sidewalk. There is an ant on the sidewalk and a pebble. Which is more likely to trip you because of its height? If I was the ant, I wouldn't worry about whether or not I'm on the pebble.
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