Risk Tolerance - Lightning

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What is your personal risk tolerance with respect to lightning above treeline?

I don't venture above treeline if NWS says there's a chance of rain. I can wait for a better day.
8
7%
If I see a rain cloud, I think pretty seriously about hanging around treeline to watch it develop.
19
17%
Rain is fine, but any thunder at all freaks me out.
44
40%
A few thunder gurgles don't bother me, but if I hear a crackle or a boom I'm turning around or finding shelter.
29
26%
Thunder is just sound. Sound never killed anyone in the mountains.
3
3%
As long as the lightning doesn't hit me, I'm good. Triggering a fight or flight response speeds your pace and sharpens your senses; it's science.
3
3%
I am Zeus. I am the lightning. Singing ice axes are my hymns.
5
5%
 
Total votes: 111
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ekalina
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by ekalina »

You are free to ignore the information mtree. There is no guaranteed safe place to be stuck outdoors in a thunderstorm, but some places are worse than others, as Scott's story illustrates (a lifeguard tower, a tree near a lake). And since thunderstorms can move 30–50 mph while we can move about 5 mph on foot, we can't always get away from them. When we find that we are about to get stuck in a storm, there are some places that mitigate (but don't eliminate) the risk. That's the point of my post above.

And I never said that you needed to try to see streamers or leaders to reduce your risk. The point is to understand that points and objects that are tall relative to their surroundings are more likely to produce a streamer that causes a lightning strike, so it is best to stay away from high ground and tall objects. As far as how tall, in a relative sense, an object needs to be to increase the risk, I doubt that has been extensively determined. The point is not to worry about running that sort of calculation in your head and instead get to lower ground, off ridges and summits and away from isolated tall trees.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by Bill G »

If you hike or climb long enough you'll have at least one memorable experience. Mine was somewhere around Ptarigan peak. Set up camp for the night and the gods must have thrown about 100 bolts at me. In my tent and scared sh**less as bolts kept hitting all around me. Not sure if their aim was just off or they were having fun at my expense.

If your number is up, not much you can do about it. I never go looking for trouble. It seems to find me just fine.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by Salient »

Image

Imagine seeing this on a mountain. It’s a real picture btw.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by EatinHardtack »

Hahahaha. Bill and Otina can attest to my hate for lightning. Was caught with both of them on Silverheels and Pikes Peak a few years ago in lightning storms.

It gave me PTSD, not lying. Have sweating, anxiety, mental breakdown when I start seeing clouds building now. It’s really hindered my climbing the last few years.
"In our youths our hearts were touched with fire" - Oliver Wendell Holmes
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by LoneStar »

bdloftin77 wrote: Mon May 24, 2021 8:18 pm Ha, you forgot the “Depends on how close I am to the summit” option. 😅
If the severity of the storm impacts one's ability to control, um, bodily functions, your sentence might read, "Depends on. How close am I to the summit?"
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by d_baker »

EatinHardtack wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 5:08 pm Hahahaha. Bill and Otina can attest to my hate for lightning. Was caught with both of them on Silverheels and Pikes Peak a few years ago in lightning storms.

It gave me PTSD, not lying. Have sweating, anxiety, mental breakdown when I start seeing clouds building now. It’s really hindered my climbing the last few years.
Hahaha...so what happens at work?!
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by Wentzl »

Salient wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:44 pm Image

Imagine seeing this on a mountain. It’s a real picture btw.
The most amazing photo ever posted on 14ers.com.

Thanks for that!
Last edited by Wentzl on Tue May 25, 2021 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by Salient »

Wentzl wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 7:46 pm
Salient wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 4:44 pm Image

Imagine seeing this on a mountain. It’s a real picture btw.
The most amazing photo ever posted on 14ers.com.

Thank for that!
Fun fact: that photo is also in the official Boy Scouts handbook
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by mtree »

ekalina wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 3:53 pm
And I never said that you needed to try to see streamers or leaders to reduce your risk. The point is to understand that points and objects that are tall relative to their surroundings are more likely to produce a streamer that causes a lightning strike, so it is best to stay away from high ground and tall objects. As far as how tall, in a relative sense, an object needs to be to increase the risk, I doubt that has been extensively determined. The point is not to worry about running that sort of calculation in your head and instead get to lower ground, off ridges and summits and away from isolated tall trees.
I meant no offense. I simply point out the folly and disinformation of your reference. Isolated tall trees are insignificant as to where lightning strikes. A myth that continues to endure. Getting to lower ground is only effective if the lower ground is a safer distance from the storm.

Bad data results in bad decisions. The fact is science knows very little about lightning and how to minimize being zapped. The only undisputed solution is to get as far away from lightning as quickly as possible. In other words, increase your distance AWAY from the source as fast as possible. That or enclose yourself in a protective shelter... which is rarely possible while hiking. And lets not get into the how or why the enclosure is effective. That's another discussion.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by Scott P »

mtree wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 10:29 pm Isolated tall trees are insignificant as to where lightning strikes. A myth that continues to endure.
Bullcrap. Not one scientist agrees with you. None. zero. It's not a myth.
I simply point out the folly and disinformation of your reference.
His reference is the NOAA National Severe Weather Laboratory. You know, the guys who actually study lightning and thunderstorms? They are the leading experts on lightning storms. No organization in the entire world has studied lightning as much as NOAA has.

One again you're shooting your mouth out on things you know nothing about or even understand. Kind of like when you tell people that you keep an ice axe hanging on the wall because it's never needed when the mountains are covered in snow. You're as reckless as you are stupid. You are a cancer to this website and an idiot. 99.9% of your post are pure garbage and often dangerous and reckless. I wish you would just go away, but we both know that's not going to happen. But I will continue to call out every reckless bullsh** statement you make. Every single one. I know I'm not the only person on this website who's sick of your useless, reckless, and incredibly stupid posts. You're nothing but a SAR incident waiting to happen.
I meant no offense.
I do mean offense. A lot of offense. But only to you. I respect every other member on this website. Even the Captain.
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For anyone who wants some actual advice, here's a pretty good article from weather.gov (the people who actually know something about lightning).

https://www.weather.gov/media/owlie/bac ... htning.pdf
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by Bale »

Scott P wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 2:13 pm
ekalina wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 1:36 pm While lightning doesn't always strike the tallest object, your risk is greater if you are on a relative high point, like a summit or a ridge.....

This website from NOAA has more information: https://www.nssl.noaa.gov/education/svr ... tning/faq/
Great synopsis. Being below timberline doesn't always make you safe just as you mention.

August 4 1991 was the second and last time I ever got shocked by lightning. My companions and I just got a light shock, but two others were killed by the same storm.
Scary stuff Scott! My first time doing Kings, circa ‘97 or so, rumor on the mountain was that a scoutmaster had been struck and killed below treeline.
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Re: Risk Tolerance - Lightning

Post by nyker »

Scariest time I've had was on Bierstadt, July 2008.

Forecast was clear I recall and at the time we were pretty strict about not venturing onto a peak if precip was forecast above 30% so it was that % or less. We got started pre sunrise as usual, sky was full of stars and by the time it was light, not a cloud to be seen, still clear with summit in view. I remember taking a few pics as we leisurely arrived at the top around 8am where some innocent looking clouds were forming. I found a few summit pics, there were 2 other people on the summit. Weekends now are probably a *bit* more crowded...

In the time it took to consume a Snickers the sky turned black. There were two guys next to us, unbeknownst to them their hair was literally standing vertical on their head, they started freaking out, one guy had an axe on his pack, which he immediately took off and threw away and there was a loud vibrating noise around, not sure what was vibrating. We packed up our food/water and got down as fast as possible, as you know the top part is not easy to run down until the talus gives way to the green slopes below. We saw lightning strikes all around us and on distant peaks which I later found out was Grays and Torreys and also learned from the car radio later that day that someone was killed around Aspen that morning on a peak there due to a strike. The vibration continued, I realized it was my aluminum poles - which I intermittently tossed down the hill ahead of us not wanting to hold them. As the rain came down, I think we made it back to the car in less than an hour running in all our hiking gear. It rained cats and dogs for the rest of the morning then
cleared. Shockingly as we were running down the hill, along with the guys who's hair was still standing up, several people were happily ascending at the same time. That day was the most scared I've been on a peak.
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