Climate Change

[crossfitter]

but the true extent of the crisis is unknown, generated by models of dubious accuracy, and likely exaggerated in both timescale and severity

I dunno man, they seem pretty damn accurate to me (assessment of accuracy from climate models included in 2004 IPCC report):

ClimateModels.JPG

I am more interested in the actual outcomes than the temperature trend itself. I'm not disputing the increase in temperature from CO2 emissions or the qualitative effects that causes, but rather the magnitude of the impact on human civilization, and having that contrasted with the negative effects of various mitigation efforts.

For example, if we stop all carbon emissions today and return to subsistence farming, did we win? Or are we already so dependent on our energy economy that abandoning it will just cause massive food price increases and result in famine anyway, all while China and the rest of the developing world plows right on ahead and the end result is we knee-capped ourselves for nothing but good feelings.

[cottonmountaineering]

Option E) Climate change is real and man-caused and generally negative, but the true extent of the crisis is unknown, generated by models of dubious accuracy, and likely exaggerated in both timescale and severity, as is every other mass hysteria (see: Corona). Most of the proposed solutions suck and are varying combinations of impractical, ineffective, or sufficiently austere as to generate similar levels of human suffering as climate change itself.

It's not going to be mad max. Wealthy countries will build, innovate, and adapt. Poor countries will suffer, and more people are probably going to die from human conflict than they will from a climate apocalypse. We're certainly not all gonna die in 12 years.

I find it quite amusing that the same people that think we're going to make shithole Mars habitable don't think we can deal with a 2C higher global temperature, and that CO2 is going to bring about the end times, but it's still not worth considering nuclear as a way out.

the future i see is that most poor countries will have food/water/energy shortages and their citizens will migrate. the "border crisis" as is reported by right wing outlets will look like a joke to what is going to happen in the future. Americans are also dumb in groups, so if there is any resource scarcity people will hoard, we had a shortage of toilet paper for months just based on rumors/hoarding.

most countries are using up their groundwater at unsustainable rates, rivers fed by glaciers are in decline, and you cant pump desalinated water thousands of miles inland efficiently

I agree. Which would imply that it would be prudent to have a strong military and border controls to ensure our own survival and success. Ideally we mitigate that outcome, but it's good to have a plan B just in case plan A doesn't work out.

as far as climate change is concerned, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. it would be easier to just pollute less

[supranihilest]

I find it quite amusing that the same people that think we're going to make shithole Mars habitable don't think we can deal with a 2C higher global temperature, and that CO2 is going to bring about the end times, but it's still not worth considering nuclear as a way out.

For example, if we stop all carbon emissions today and return to subsistence farming, did we win? Or are we already so dependent on our energy economy that abandoning it will just cause massive food price increases and result in famine anyway, all while China and the rest of the developing world plows right on ahead and the end result is we knee-capped ourselves for nothing but good feelings.

We should start burning all this straw, sheesh.

[crossfitter]

As I have said, I have no issues with addressing it, but we should balance out the impacts of climate policies with the impacts of climate change itself. 70% of the people on this thread think we are imminently headed towards a post apocalyptic hellscape due to unwavering faith in highly questionable predictions, and that colors the sort of extreme policies that are on the table. This is exactly the same as shutting down the entire world at all costs- damn the consequences - because you truly believe 10% of the population is about to die. What if you are wrong?

Until nuclear is on the table in combination with other solutions, I don't believe someone when they claim to believe CO2 is heralding the end times. If you don't at least consider that as a potential solution, you either don't really believe it will be that bad, or you're just parroting the cult-like Kool aid.

[Doing14ers]

Bill Gates says we need nuclear in his recent book.

I thought is was a good book and a quick read. Addresses many of these topics. He makes the case that we definitely need to be assessing the issue.

[supranihilest]

As I have said, I have no issues with addressing it

Through bad faith arguments and strawmen.

we should balance out the impacts of climate policies with the impacts of climate change itself.

Again, your strawmen don't go with this point. You're acting like climate policies themselves are the apocalypse you claim others believe climate change to be.

70% of the people on this thread think we are imminently headed towards a post apocalyptic hellscape due to unwavering faith in highly questionable predictions

Did you read the poll? It says over 200 years. I wouldn't call that imminent. No, I am not saying I don't think climate change is serious and that we shouldn't do something about it yesterday, so don't bother suggesting that's what I said.

and that colors the sort of extreme policies that are on the table.

Yeah... those extreme policies like... trying to reduce the impact of factory farming and using energy efficient appliances and lowering vehicle emissions.

This is exactly the same as shutting down the entire world at all costs- damn the consequences - because you truly believe 10% of the population is about to die.

Strawman, the entire world did not shut down at all costs damn the consequences. You lose credibility with bad faith arguments like this.

What if you are wrong?

unnamed.jpg (58.65 KiB) Viewed 1963 times

Until nuclear is on the table in combination with other solutions, I don't believe someone when they claim to believe CO2 is heralding the end times. If you don't at least consider that as a potential solution, you either don't really believe it will be that bad, or you're just parroting the cult-like Kool aid.

I think we should take advantage of nuclear power more myself. Saying that nuclear power skeptics don't believe climate change is that bad is another strawman and saying that they're drinking the Kool-aid is just a straight up ad hominem.

[painless4u2]

"Masks may not be necessary when you and the person you are caring for are outside and away from others."
[/https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... dance.html]

You guys keep digging. Your non-rational thinking is getting you a deeper hole.

I have a ex-neighbor/friend who's father is in the hospital with COVID because he refused to get vaccinated. Another consequence of non-critical thinking.

So you are suggesting he caught Covid-19 while outside and alone?
Dig away...

[timisimaginary]

Wealthy countries will build, innovate, and adapt.

And the wealthy people in those countries, including ours, will do ok. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people in our country who will not have access to the resources that this wealth provides. Accountability is coming for us, like it or not. But not in fair measure to all...

Let them eat A/C.

[rijaca]

"Masks may not be necessary when you and the person you are caring for are outside and away from others."
[/https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... dance.html]

You guys keep digging. Your non-rational thinking is getting you a deeper hole.

I have a ex-neighbor/friend who's father is in the hospital with COVID because he refused to get vaccinated. Another consequence of non-critical thinking.

So you are suggesting he caught Covid-19 while outside and alone?
Dig away...

No. Are you're reading comprehension skills that poor? They were two separate points regarding non-critical thinking. Hence, two separate paragraphs.

[supranihilest]

"Masks may not be necessary when you and the person you are caring for are outside and away from others."
[/https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... dance.html]

You guys keep digging. Your non-rational thinking is getting you a deeper hole.

I have a ex-neighbor/friend who's father is in the hospital with COVID because he refused to get vaccinated. Another consequence of non-critical thinking.

So you are suggesting he caught Covid-19 while outside and alone?
Dig away...

Imagine getting this perturbed over an anecdote of a person doing something that has no effect on you whatsoever.

[crossfitter]

As I have said, I have no issues with addressing it

Through bad faith arguments and strawmen.

we should balance out the impacts of climate policies with the impacts of climate change itself.

Again, your strawmen don't go with this point. You're acting like climate policies themselves are the apocalypse you claim others believe climate change to be.

70% of the people on this thread think we are imminently headed towards a post apocalyptic hellscape due to unwavering faith in highly questionable predictions

Did you read the poll? It says over 200 years. I wouldn't call that imminent. No, I am not saying I don't think climate change is serious and that we shouldn't do something about it yesterday, so don't bother suggesting that's what I said.

and that colors the sort of extreme policies that are on the table.

Yeah... those extreme policies like... trying to reduce the impact of factory farming and using energy efficient appliances and lowering vehicle emissions.

This is exactly the same as shutting down the entire world at all costs- damn the consequences - because you truly believe 10% of the population is about to die.

Strawman, the entire world did not shut down at all costs damn the consequences. You lose credibility with bad faith arguments like this.

What if you are wrong?

unnamed.jpg

Until nuclear is on the table in combination with other solutions, I don't believe someone when they claim to believe CO2 is heralding the end times. If you don't at least consider that as a potential solution, you either don't really believe it will be that bad, or you're just parroting the cult-like Kool aid.

I think we should take advantage of nuclear power more myself. Saying that nuclear power skeptics don't believe climate change is that bad is another strawman and saying that they're drinking the Kool-aid is just a straight up ad hominem.

You may have noticed I enjoy using hyperbole for effect. But the fact that this poll doesn't even have an option between "the climate god will smite us, repent ye unbeliever" and "global warming is a Chinese hoax" sort of proves my point. People absolutely hate hearing someone say that the end is not nigh, and they bring out the pitch forks if you aren't on board with any and all climate mitigation plans, hence cult-like behavior.

We spend a whole lot of mental effort and virtue signaling over dumb s**t like unplugging wall-warts and promoting low -flush toilets that take 3 tries to get the job done, while completely ignoring the big ticket items that actually matter - things like tuning a blind eye towards china and India, or growing almonds in the f***ing desert. But those electric vehicles charged on coal-powered electrical grids probably help too.

[rijaca]

I have a ex-neighbor/friend who's father is in the hospital with COVID because he refused to get vaccinated. Another consequence of non-critical thinking.

So you are suggesting he caught Covid-19 while outside and alone?
Dig away...

Imagine getting this perturbed over an anecdotal person doing something that has no effect on you whatsoever.

I agree. I really don't care anymore if you wear a mask or not, unless it's required. Then play by the rules. And to get bothered by someone that chooses to wear a mask (for any reason) is as judgmental as it gets, I do get a kick out of peeps that wear a mask yet don't have it cover their nose. Why then bother with the mask?