Climate Change

Items that do not fit the categories above.
Forum rules
  • This is a mountaineering forum, so please keep your posts on-topic. Posts do not all have to be related to the 14ers but should at least be mountaineering-related.
  • Personal attacks and confrontational behavior will result in removal from the forum at the discretion of the administrators.
  • Do not use this forum to advertise, sell photos or other products or promote a commercial website.
  • Posts will be removed at the discretion of the site administrator or moderator(s), including: Troll posts, posts pushing political views or religious beliefs, and posts with the purpose of instigating conflict within the forum.
For more details, please see the Terms of Use you agreed to when joining the forum.
Locked

Climate change:

is happening and is a direct consequence of industrialism and overpopulation over the last 200yrs and if we do nothing, humans are going to live in dramatically different, inhospitable conditions over the next 200yrs, think Mad Max
80
69%
is happening and is just a natural cycle of the earth and environment, will happen again once we are long gone, and possibly not much we can do about it except maybe at the margin
19
16%
is likely happening and we just currently lack sufficient information over a long enough period to draw an accurate conclusion of the extent that humans have possibly impacted its potential acceleration
14
12%
is Hogwash, what climate change? It's the media and politicians trying to scare us or sway votes and public opinion. EVs? I don't even like charging my phone.
3
3%
 
Total votes: 116
User avatar
Salient
Posts: 178
Joined: 2/19/2021
Trip Reports (0)
 
Contact:

Re: Climate Change

Post by Salient »

I'm actually relatively surprised that the first choice got 71% of the votes. I think there could be quite a lot of truth to the 2nd & 3rd choices. I don't really see enough people actively doing enough to combat climate change and I think it's going to stay that way until something changes drastically.
Be the best you that you can be.
User avatar
Rollie Free
Posts: 456
Joined: 6/8/2012
14ers: 45 
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Climate Change

Post by Rollie Free »

Salient wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:30 am I'm actually relatively surprised that the first choice got 71% of the votes. I think there could be quite a lot of truth to the 2nd & 3rd choices. I don't really see enough people actively doing enough to combat climate change and I think it's going to stay that way until something changes drastically.
Well there is a lot of virtue signaling minus any actual personal behavior changes. People say they believe this but their actions don't match what they say. I saw some interviews of college students recently where they were very concerned about the 'grave' danger of global climate warming change etc. . When they were asked if they would discontinue traveling to help they changed their tunes pretty fast. One girl said that she can't do that, she likes to travel. That mindset is probably the norm and not the exception. Personally I'm not concerned and find a lot of it a crock of bull. That being said what difference does it make what I believe or what anyone believes on the surface? How many of those 71% have discontinued air travel or don't own a car or live without an AC? I am guessing about 1%.
"Quicker than I can tell it, my hands failed to hold, my feet slipped, and down I went with almost an arrow’s rapidity. An eternity of thought, of life, of death, wife, and home concentrated on my mind in those two seconds. Fortunately for me, I threw my right arm around a projecting boulder which stood above the icy plain some two or three feet." Rev. Elijah Lamb
User avatar
cottonmountaineering
Posts: 849
Joined: 5/11/2018
14ers: 58  7  18 
13ers: 178 38 31
Trip Reports (1)
 

Re: Climate Change

Post by cottonmountaineering »

Rollie Free wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:09 am
Salient wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:30 am I'm actually relatively surprised that the first choice got 71% of the votes. I think there could be quite a lot of truth to the 2nd & 3rd choices. I don't really see enough people actively doing enough to combat climate change and I think it's going to stay that way until something changes drastically.
Well there is a lot of virtue signaling minus any actual personal behavior changes. People say they believe this but their actions don't match what they say. I saw some interviews of college students recently where they were very concerned about the 'grave' danger of global climate warming change etc. . When they were asked if they would discontinue traveling to help they changed their tunes pretty fast. One girl said that she can't do that, she likes to travel. That mindset is probably the norm and not the exception. Personally I'm not concerned and find a lot of it a crock of bull. That being said what difference does it make what I believe or what anyone believes on the surface? How many of those 71% have discontinued air travel or don't own a car or live without an AC? I am guessing about 1%.
No one wants to give up their lifestyle, but i feel its unfair to shift the blame to 7 billion different people for simply being participants in being alive. In our current system everything takes energy. If you pay taxes in america, you contribute a lot of emissions just due to the way our government spends that money.

That said, in my opinion, the issue is we aren't pricing in the true cost of emissions.

An example would be if i open a gold mine, mined $1000 worth of gold, but caused $10,000 worth of environmental damage. Prior to regulation, the gold miner takes off with $1,000 and the tax payer foots the bill for the cleanup. The net benefit is quite negative. There are regulations (albeit a bit shoddy) now that a certain amount has to be set aside for remediation when mining, so it changes the formula a bit for damaging the environment. I think it would be fair to apply the same to carbon emitting industries.

Honestly people will only change their habits when it makes financial sense to do so, and there are many ways to make big strides while not hurting the average consumer. No regulation is perfect... but at the rate we are going, our children will have a bleak future.
User avatar
randalmartin
Posts: 1490
Joined: 5/4/2008
14ers: 58  1 
13ers: 48 2
Trip Reports (13)
 

Re: Climate Change

Post by randalmartin »

cottonmountaineering wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:32 am Honestly people will only change their habits when it makes financial sense to do so
Bingo!

Conserving and using less resources cannot be about the altruistic choice of individuals. It will never be successful otherwise. The key is making the technology advancements that result in achieving the similar outcomes with less. One of the biggest will be the Nuclear. It is far and away the best hope for a dramatic reduction in the resources required to produce the same output (energy).
nunns
Posts: 1407
Joined: 8/17/2018
14ers: 43 
13ers: 5
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Climate Change

Post by nunns »

randalmartin wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:05 pm Conserving and using less resources cannot be about the altruistic choice of individuals. It will never be successful otherwise. The key is making the technology advancements that result in achieving the similar outcomes with less. One of the biggest will be the Nuclear. It is far and away the best hope for a dramatic reduction in the resources required to produce the same output (energy).
People still have to choose the new technology, at least at the beginning. Electric cars are a good example right now. Even with huge government subsidies for them, electric cars are still more expensive to buy than regular cars. Eventually it is possible that they won't be, but for now they are. Some people have chosen to pay the extra for an electric vehicle. I say good for them. It's not the way that I help the environment, but good for them.

Sean Nunn
"Thy righteousness is like the great mountains." --Psalms 36:6
TomPierce
Posts: 2735
Joined: 11/21/2007
Trip Reports (2)
 

Re: Climate Change

Post by TomPierce »

I recall reading a summary of climate change challenges, written by Bill Gates, that for me was thought provoking. I assume his data was correct. What was interesting was that the bigger challenges were industries I hadn't even thought about. Turns out that cement production and manufacturing steel are huge contributors. Gates' conclusion was that really moving the needle would require an overhaul of industrial practices and that the things individuals could change in a meaningful way would have a limited effect. Again, I assume his data was correct.

I don't think what I or other individuals can do will solve this problem in my (limited remaining :lol: ) lifetime, but nor do I think that's an excuse to abdicate responsibility to do something. Even if changes at the margin will produce a relatively trivial movement of the climate change needle. Gotta start somewhere. Just me.

-Tom
User avatar
two lunches
Posts: 1328
Joined: 5/30/2014
14ers: 37  2 
13ers: 59
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Climate Change

Post by two lunches »

cottonmountaineering wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:32 am Honestly people will only change their habits when it makes financial sense to do so
this is valid for an approach to solving every major problem we, as a society, have created-- the majority of the fines need to fall on the major corporations, though. not individuals

lose your net while fishing? bummer. $10,000 fine per net that doesn't make it back to shore.

and so on, and so forth.
“To walk in nature is to witness a thousand miracles.” – Mary Davis
User avatar
hellmanm
Posts: 339
Joined: 8/5/2014
14ers: 58 
13ers: 45 1
Trip Reports (7)
 

Re: Climate Change

Post by hellmanm »

stephakett wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:46 pm
this is valid for an approach to solving every major problem we, as a society, have created-- the majority of the fines need to fall on the major corporations, though. not individuals

lose your net while fishing? bummer. $10,000 fine per net that doesn't make it back to shore.
^That is, until the fishing company responds by forcing their employees to own their own nets and be responsible for their preservation. With no leverage and a weak (if at all existent) union, the independently contracted fishing boats who can't take the financial risks necessary to produce maximum output go under. The big corporations either deal with marginal losses, find other fishermen, or make life so miserable for watchdog agencies that it becomes next to impossible to enforce this fine. It always falls on the little guy.

(Just saying how that example would go IRL -- idk the rules/regulations in the fishing industry, but fining/taxing tends to lead to such outcomes without properly targeted incentives. Anyway, climate change is bad and we're screwed -- just wanted to be a contrarian :-D )
Doing14ers
Posts: 38
Joined: 4/27/2019
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Climate Change

Post by Doing14ers »

My personal line in the sand is 30 mpg. I won’t drive a car as a daily driver that get less than that. I can’t see how that could be justified.
User avatar
two lunches
Posts: 1328
Joined: 5/30/2014
14ers: 37  2 
13ers: 59
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Climate Change

Post by two lunches »

hellmanm wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:02 pm
^That is, until the fishing company responds by forcing their employees to own their own nets and be responsible for their preservation. With no leverage and a weak (if at all existent) union, the independently contracted fishing boats who can't take the financial risks necessary to produce maximum output go under. The big corporations either deal with marginal losses, find other fishermen, or make life so miserable for watchdog agencies that it becomes next to impossible to enforce this fine. It always falls on the little guy.

(Just saying how that example would go IRL -- idk the rules/regulations in the fishing industry, but fining/taxing tends to lead to such outcomes without properly targeted incentives. Anyway, climate change is bad and we're screwed -- just wanted to be a contrarian :-D )
if what i outlined is not a reasonable solution, then propose a better one instead of sitting around making excuses for why the world can't be a better place... maybe you should run for office =D>

(just saying)
“To walk in nature is to witness a thousand miracles.” – Mary Davis
User avatar
ClimbandMine
Posts: 386
Joined: 4/3/2007
14ers: 57 
13ers: 47 1
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Climate Change

Post by ClimbandMine »

cottonmountaineering wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:32 am
Rollie Free wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:09 am
Salient wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:30 am I'm actually relatively surprised that the first choice got 71% of the votes. I think there could be quite a lot of truth to the 2nd & 3rd choices. I don't really see enough people actively doing enough to combat climate change and I think it's going to stay that way until something changes drastically.
Well there is a lot of virtue signaling minus any actual personal behavior changes. People say they believe this but their actions don't match what they say. I saw some interviews of college students recently where they were very concerned about the 'grave' danger of global climate warming change etc. . When they were asked if they would discontinue traveling to help they changed their tunes pretty fast. One girl said that she can't do that, she likes to travel. That mindset is probably the norm and not the exception. Personally I'm not concerned and find a lot of it a crock of bull. That being said what difference does it make what I believe or what anyone believes on the surface? How many of those 71% have discontinued air travel or don't own a car or live without an AC? I am guessing about 1%.
No one wants to give up their lifestyle, but i feel its unfair to shift the blame to 7 billion different people for simply being participants in being alive. In our current system everything takes energy. If you pay taxes in america, you contribute a lot of emissions just due to the way our government spends that money.

That said, in my opinion, the issue is we aren't pricing in the true cost of emissions.

An example would be if i open a gold mine, mined $1000 worth of gold, but caused $10,000 worth of environmental damage. Prior to regulation, the gold miner takes off with $1,000 and the tax payer foots the bill for the cleanup. The net benefit is quite negative. There are regulations (albeit a bit shoddy) now that a certain amount has to be set aside for remediation when mining, so it changes the formula a bit for damaging the environment. I think it would be fair to apply the same to carbon emitting industries.

Honestly people will only change their habits when it makes financial sense to do so, and there are many ways to make big strides while not hurting the average consumer. No regulation is perfect... but at the rate we are going, our children will have a bleak future.
Regulations on modern mining in the US (and especially Colorado) are anything but shoddy. You example is awful. Mining is heavily regulated by a veritable alphabet soup of county, state, and federal agencies. And I can show you examples of excellent closure and closure management of mines. People break laws, sometime on purpose (more laws don't fix bad people!), and many mines were closed pre-NEPA (think Gold King) so more laws won't change that either...

Want electrification? Gotta mine the metals to do it. Preferably not with kids if Africa, eh?
I don't care that you Tele.
User avatar
cottonmountaineering
Posts: 849
Joined: 5/11/2018
14ers: 58  7  18 
13ers: 178 38 31
Trip Reports (1)
 

Re: Climate Change

Post by cottonmountaineering »

ClimbandMine wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:18 pm
cottonmountaineering wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:32 am
Rollie Free wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:09 am

Well there is a lot of virtue signaling minus any actual personal behavior changes. People say they believe this but their actions don't match what they say. I saw some interviews of college students recently where they were very concerned about the 'grave' danger of global climate warming change etc. . When they were asked if they would discontinue traveling to help they changed their tunes pretty fast. One girl said that she can't do that, she likes to travel. That mindset is probably the norm and not the exception. Personally I'm not concerned and find a lot of it a crock of bull. That being said what difference does it make what I believe or what anyone believes on the surface? How many of those 71% have discontinued air travel or don't own a car or live without an AC? I am guessing about 1%.
No one wants to give up their lifestyle, but i feel its unfair to shift the blame to 7 billion different people for simply being participants in being alive. In our current system everything takes energy. If you pay taxes in america, you contribute a lot of emissions just due to the way our government spends that money.

That said, in my opinion, the issue is we aren't pricing in the true cost of emissions.

An example would be if i open a gold mine, mined $1000 worth of gold, but caused $10,000 worth of environmental damage. Prior to regulation, the gold miner takes off with $1,000 and the tax payer foots the bill for the cleanup. The net benefit is quite negative. There are regulations (albeit a bit shoddy) now that a certain amount has to be set aside for remediation when mining, so it changes the formula a bit for damaging the environment. I think it would be fair to apply the same to carbon emitting industries.

Honestly people will only change their habits when it makes financial sense to do so, and there are many ways to make big strides while not hurting the average consumer. No regulation is perfect... but at the rate we are going, our children will have a bleak future.
Regulations on modern mining in the US (and especially Colorado) are anything but shoddy. You example is awful. Mining is heavily regulated by a veritable alphabet soup of county, state, and federal agencies. And I can show you examples of excellent closure and closure management of mines. People break laws, sometime on purpose (more laws don't fix bad people!), and many mines were closed pre-NEPA (think Gold King) so more laws won't change that either...

Want electrification? Gotta mine the metals to do it. Preferably not with kids if Africa, eh?
it was an oversimplified example, 1850-1900 was a free for all that we are still paying consequences for in mining, regulations were introduced to make things better. there are superfund sites in colorado that were in operations in the 20th century as well. all im saying is that we currently do not have the environmental cost of carbon emissions baked into fossil fuels.
Locked