NPS Denali Dispatch: Overconfidence and Inexperience in the Alaska Range

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I Man
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Re: NPS Denali Dispatch: Overconfidence and Inexperience in the Alaska Range

Post by I Man »

Fireweed wrote: Thu May 27, 2021 7:38 pm https://www.nps.gov/dena/blogs/troubling-trends.htm
Another disturbing trend we are seeing is people attempting the summit from 14,000 feet. While it is totally reasonable to gain 7,000 feet of elevation in a day in Colorado and summit a 14’er, going from 14,000 feet to the summit of Denali is a whole different undertaking. There are very few mountaineers capable of moving fast enough to accomplish this safely. Exhaustion, untested physiological response to high altitude, rapidly changing weather, and insufficient gear on such a long push are all factors we have seen contribute to injuries and deaths for those attempting a summit out of 14 camp. Monday was a very real and sobering reminder of the dangers of this phenomenon.

It should go without saying that planning from the outset of the expedition to make an attempt to reach the summit from 14,000 feet is ill advised for someone who has never before been to this altitude, particularly in an arctic environment, and has no real conception of how their body will respond to such stresses. However, it also seems that many of the attempts to go to the summit from 14 camp in a single push are often a spur of the moment strategy that develops when an expedition has been pinned down by weather and is running out of time. In other words, it's borne out of desperation, impatience, and summit fever.
Both times I have been to 14 camp on Denali, the NPS Rangers very much deterred climbers from attempting 14 to summit and said it was "barely possible."
Sure, I agree that those who do not have the experience, should not attempt this, but I would strongly disagree with the overall tone. In modern alpinism the 14 to summit has become the norm and many would argue that it is a safer bet in many ways.

First of all 17 camp is a cold, desolate place and feels much higher than 17k. Carrying all your gear and setting up a camp there is a lot of work and could require a rest day afterwards. Just staying up at 17 camp is exhausting. Time and time again I have seen (and heard of) climbers stranded up there, stuck in a storm and unable to get themselves down. It is a very unforgiving place, perhaps more unforgiving than camps above 6,000m in the Himalaya. In order to safely summit from 17 camp you need 3 good days of weather, which in the Alaska Range is unlikely.

Summitting from1 4 camp is not new and it is not a "spur of the moment strategy." It is well documented and suggested in books like "Training for the New Alpinism" as it has many advantages, including safety. 14 camp on Denali is a pretty safe place, 17 camp is not. If you leave from 14 camp with the understanding that no matter what you are returning to 14 camp that day (no unplanned bivy as that is likely a death sentence) then to me it is safer than trying to make a camp at 17k.

It is a big day, but it is not THAT difficult. The terrain is all easy and can be done unroped. It you are sufficiently acclimated then you should be able to go from 14 to summit and back in 12-16 hours. Given the long days and lack of darkness during the climbing season, it really is a fun day out.

Denali is an incredible place, my favorite place on Earth. I will say that despite its reputation as a tourist mountain, it is the real deal and most (including myself) do not summit on their first trip. I have often joked with friends that Karakoram is training for Alaska.

I hope to go back some day...

EDIT:

I pulled this from my Trip Report from that climb

14 to Summit
The Pros:
You only need a single weather window, instead of 2-3 days if you use 17 camp
No chance of being stuck at 17 for a long time before or after your climb
No need to carry a heavy pack to 17k
Overall, much higher chance of success

The Cons:
If s**t hits the fan, you're done. No bivy gear is carried and you are relying wholly on your own ability to get yourself down in the event of bad weather or an emergency. To some, this ups the risk factor, but for many other alpinists, putting the risk in your own hands is much more desirable. After all, we climb to test ourselves and the mountain is merely an arena.
Last edited by I Man on Fri May 28, 2021 1:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: NPS Denali Dispatch: Overconfidence and Inexperience in the Alaska Range

Post by I Man »

SchralpTheGnar wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:11 am Has anyone here done the push from 14k in a day or skied Denali? That article actually makes me want to try to do it.
Yes, many have done this. It is the preferred plan for most (if not all) climbers I know these days. On May 24th 2016 I reached the summit in a long day from 14 camp in 13.5 hours round trip. It was a single day weather window and those who stopped at 17 that night were pinned down for a few days after and were in need of rescue. I have been spreading the 14 to Summit gospel ever since. Our team was there for Cassin Ridge and if you can't 14 to summit easily in a day than you have no business on Cassin. of course I have never stepped foot on Cassin and am currently 0/2 on Hunter's West Ridge and 0/2 on Foraker's Sultana Ridge. Alaska is very hard haha - when there I always say I will never go back and half a day later drinking beers at the West Rib pub we are often talking of buying property there :lol:
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Re: NPS Denali Dispatch: Overconfidence and Inexperience in the Alaska Range

Post by Bale »

I summited in ‘12, but unlike I Man, I have no desire to return to “The High One”, though I could probably be talked into a Ruth trip for Moose’s Tooth and Barrille.
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Re: NPS Denali Dispatch: Overconfidence and Inexperience in the Alaska Range

Post by martinleroux »

SchralpTheGnar wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:11 am Has anyone here done the push from 14k in a day or skied Denali? That article actually makes me want to try to do it.
Yes, in 2008 I summited from 14k. It was about a 12-hour round trip with a light pack. We didn't consider ourselves elite climbers but I think we had done more training than most of the people we met up there. (We spent the previous winter climbing as many 13ers and 14ers as we could manage, including some in pretty bad weather). It also helped that we'd spent a week at 14k and a couple of nights at 16k in an abortive attempt on the Upper W Rib.
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Re: NPS Denali Dispatch: Overconfidence and Inexperience in the Alaska Range

Post by cottonmountaineering »

ive done 14k to 20k a couple times and it isnt crazy, its normal in greater ranges for alpine climbing. i think they put this message out because a lot of people climbing denali are from ohio or texas, dont have the training/experience to know what their bodies are capable of
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Re: NPS Denali Dispatch: Overconfidence and Inexperience in the Alaska Range

Post by SchralpTheGnar »

cottonmountaineering wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 4:16 pm ive done 14k to 20k a couple times and it isnt crazy, its normal in greater ranges for alpine climbing. i think they put this message out because a lot of people climbing denali are from ohio or texas, dont have the training/experience to know what their bodies are capable of
Then why do they mention Colorado 14ers
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Re: NPS Denali Dispatch: Overconfidence and Inexperience in the Alaska Range

Post by Bean »

SchralpTheGnar wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:11 am Has anyone here done the push from 14k in a day or skied Denali? That article actually makes me want to try to do it.
I skied off the summit, summit day started from 14 and if I go back that will be the plan again. Don’t do it if you’re not fit enough.

Also, don’t go to Denali if you aren’t fit enough to summit from 14.
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Re: NPS Denali Dispatch: Overconfidence and Inexperience in the Alaska Range

Post by Tim A »

Forgive my seeming ignorance, but how can one assess if they’re fit enough for a +/-7000’ day above 14K in the lower 48? Besides hiking up Blanca from the road or doing multiple laps on Tuning fork, is there a way to know how the body will respond to going higher than 14?
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Re: NPS Denali Dispatch: Overconfidence and Inexperience in the Alaska Range

Post by Bean »

Tim A wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:57 pm Forgive my seeming ignorance, but how can one assess if they’re fit enough for a +/-7000’ day above 14K in the lower 48? Besides hiking up Blanca from the road or doing multiple laps on Tuning fork, is there a way to know how the body will respond to going higher than 14?
It’s impossible to tell how you’ll react over 14 until you get there, but fitness wise - can you do a 10k’ ski day here? Run a sub-4 marathon on zero notice? Nice thing about being at 14 camp is you can go to 17 for lunch with pretty minimal effort.
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Re: NPS Denali Dispatch: Overconfidence and Inexperience in the Alaska Range

Post by Tim A »

Bean wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 8:04 pm
Tim A wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:57 pm Forgive my seeming ignorance, but how can one assess if they’re fit enough for a +/-7000’ day above 14K in the lower 48? Besides hiking up Blanca from the road or doing multiple laps on Tuning fork, is there a way to know how the body will respond to going higher than 14?
It’s impossible to tell how you’ll react over 14 until you get there, but fitness wise - can you do a 10k’ ski day here? Run a sub-4 marathon on zero notice? Nice thing about being at 14 camp is you can go to 17 for lunch with pretty minimal effort.

Gotcha, so basically just be limitless below 14K and able to jog up Liberty ridge. I’ve got work to do.
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Re: NPS Denali Dispatch: Overconfidence and Inexperience in the Alaska Range

Post by Salient »

Tim A wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 8:49 pm
Bean wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 8:04 pm
Tim A wrote: Fri May 28, 2021 7:57 pm Forgive my seeming ignorance, but how can one assess if they’re fit enough for a +/-7000’ day above 14K in the lower 48? Besides hiking up Blanca from the road or doing multiple laps on Tuning fork, is there a way to know how the body will respond to going higher than 14?
It’s impossible to tell how you’ll react over 14 until you get there, but fitness wise - can you do a 10k’ ski day here? Run a sub-4 marathon on zero notice? Nice thing about being at 14 camp is you can go to 17 for lunch with pretty minimal effort.

Gotcha, so basically just be limitless below 14K and able to jog up Liberty ridge. I’ve got work to do.
For real. That sounds like something that guy who did Masherbrum to 7300m solo could do. I doubt you need to be as fit as that.
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Re: NPS Denali Dispatch: Overconfidence and Inexperience in the Alaska Range

Post by Ivar »

I Man, I was on Denali in 2016 shortly after you and saw all the frostbitten people coming down after being pinned at 17K for many days. One was the first Macedonian woman to summit Denali – she had to be rescued. I did a solo attempt from 14K but turned back when weather was not ideal. While I was at 14K a couple of guys from Colorado were successful from 14K, but someone had robbed their cache at 17K (stove to make water, summit jacket and food) and so they were totally wasted on their return to 14K. I think if you plan to do it from 14K you should do a few round trips to around 17K and see if your time is reasonable. If you aren’t crushing the average times from 14 to 17K and feeling good afterwords, you probably are not ready.

Interestingly, the NPS article made the point about the dangers of meeting up with other climbers at 14K if your own team dissolved. That’s what I did when my two buddies decided to go home. I had concerns about climbing with people I did not know, but we made a great team and are lifelong adventure buddies now – I felt like we vetted each other pretty well and when we set up camp at 17K it was clear we felt comfortable and safe with one another. I’m not downplaying the point in the NPS article, but just adding my experience.

On skiing, I think it is great to bring skiis for efficiency and safety for crossing crevasses, but we left ours at 14K. I was very glad I didn’t have to ski from the summit – conditions were horribly windblown. The week before a guy from the Czech Republic lost an edge on the Messner Couloir and had a fatal fall.
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