Tips for Physical Training

FAQ and threads for those just starting to hike the Colorado 14ers.
Forum rules
  • This is a mountaineering forum, so please keep your posts on-topic. Posts do not all have to be related to the 14ers but should at least be mountaineering-related.
  • Personal attacks and confrontational behavior will result in removal from the forum at the discretion of the administrators.
  • Do not use this forum to advertise, sell photos or other products or promote a commercial website.
  • Posts will be removed at the discretion of the site administrator or moderator(s), including: Troll posts, posts pushing political views or religious beliefs, and posts with the purpose of instigating conflict within the forum.
For more details, please see the Terms of Use you agreed to when joining the forum.
Post Reply
Jaggers
Posts: 13
Joined: 10/17/2011
14ers: 47  1 
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Tips for Physical Training

Post by Jaggers »

LURE wrote:
Conor wrote: But anyone wishing to take their climbs to the next level, really ought to ditch the crossfit.
What does Anton Krupicka do? He runs and climbs in the mountains everyday.

If you can get out and climb/run mountains every day, that is great. The question posed seamed to be more about what kind of exercise program could be helpful for someone who doesn't get out very often and treats this more as a hobby.

You are also missing the point that I am not claiming to be an expert or tell you what is the best training program for mountaineering. I am sharing something that I personally do that gets efficient results for me in the relatively short period of time I have to dedicate to exercise on a weekly basis.
User avatar
LURE
Posts: 1284
Joined: 6/27/2011
14ers: 34 
13ers: 10
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Tips for Physical Training

Post by LURE »

Rollie Free wrote:Case in point: Creatine has varying effects on athletes. Some get a big effect, for others it does virtually nothing. It depends on how specific bodies process it and/or their bodies need to process it.

I think the best advice its to educate yourself as much as you can, try different methods and test them out for yourself. I thing its short sighted to say 'that doesn't work'.
I don't think it's short sighted to say, for example, "doing squats every day and nothing else, doesn't work if you wanna be fast and efficient runner". You gotta actually run to be a good runner. Yes it's a little extreme, but you get the point, yeah? Anything can't work for everything. Crossfit is a weird hybrid of this concept. In my mind, where I like to keep things simplistic and broad brushed I see crossfit this way: It makes you fit, and it makes you good at crossfit - but it doesn't make ya good at much else.

Creatine is a weird example to me because it's a supplement and not an activity, but I get what you're driving at with that example.
User avatar
LURE
Posts: 1284
Joined: 6/27/2011
14ers: 34 
13ers: 10
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Tips for Physical Training

Post by LURE »

Jaggers wrote:
LURE wrote:
Conor wrote: But anyone wishing to take their climbs to the next level, really ought to ditch the crossfit.
What does Anton Krupicka do? He runs and climbs in the mountains everyday.

If you can get out and climb/run mountains every day, that is great. The question posed seamed to be more about what kind of exercise program could be helpful for someone who doesn't get out very often and treats this more as a hobby.

You are also missing the point that I am not claiming to be an expert or tell you what is the best training program for mountaineering. I am sharing something that I personally do that gets efficient results for me in the relatively short period of time I have to dedicate to exercise on a weekly basis.
Contrary, a little, to what I just said I won't entirely disagree. Crossfit does give you a strong, injury resistant body, and increases the efficiency of the cardiovascular system. So yeah, of course it will help people be physically fit and that will aid people. I do view it, though, as a weirdly contradictory type of fitness that is general in one sense, but at the same time very focused fitness in another sense - focused on the activity of crossfit itself, which I think is substantiated by the fact that there are crossfit competitions, and those guys are only good at crossfit, and I don't view the activity of crossfit as very transferable to other activities.

You are right though, it is fitness, and fitness is good, and fitness will help.
Last edited by LURE on Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
summit21
Posts: 99
Joined: 6/16/2007
14ers: 47 
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Tips for Physical Training

Post by summit21 »

justiner wrote:Run. Not too fast. Mostly hills.
in a nutshell THIS! ^^^^
"The weather? The weather? Just show up at the trailhead and see what happens...you'll be surprised!"
Jaggers
Posts: 13
Joined: 10/17/2011
14ers: 47  1 
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Tips for Physical Training

Post by Jaggers »

LURE wrote:
Jaggers wrote:
LURE wrote:
What does Anton Krupicka do? He runs and climbs in the mountains everyday.

If you can get out and climb/run mountains every day, that is great. The question posed seamed to be more about what kind of exercise program could be helpful for someone who doesn't get out very often and treats this more as a hobby.

You are also missing the point that I am not claiming to be an expert or tell you what is the best training program for mountaineering. I am sharing something that I personally do that gets efficient results for me in the relatively short period of time I have to dedicate to exercise on a weekly basis.
Contrary, a little, to what I just said I won't entirely disagree. Crossfit does give you a strong, injury resistant body, and increases the efficiency of the cardiovascular system. So yeah, of course it will help people be physically fit and that will aid people. I do view it, though, as a weirdly contradictory type of fitness that is general in one sense, but at the same time very focused fitness in another sense - focused on the activity of crossfit itself, which I think is substantiated by the fact that there are crossfit competitions, and those guys are only good at crossfit, and I don't view the activity of crossfit as very transferable to other activities.

You are right though, it is fitness, and fitness is good, and fitness will help.
I don't think we're on completely opposite pages. CrossFit is more broad. Specific training geared toward specific activities is going to help you improve for that activity, and CrossFit is not a substitute for that. If you want to be a baseball pitcher, you have to train specifically for that. CrossFit can help provide that person with a base and balance that will help that person prevent injury and be a better pitcher, but you still have to get out there and throw a baseball.
User avatar
Conor
Posts: 1112
Joined: 9/2/2014
14ers: 41  6  6 
13ers: 51 1 1
Trip Reports (7)
 

Re: Tips for Physical Training

Post by Conor »

Jaggers wrote:
Conor wrote:
Jaggers wrote:
If you're truly interested and have specific questions about how it has helped me, then I would do my best to answer. So far, you have only stated that others disagree. I don't see how citing vague references to contradictory authority does anything but inspire debate. You have asked me to provide you with credible sources proving why my personal experience with CrossFit has worked for me. Again, I was simply sharing my personal experience.

Good luck to you, too.
How much more specific would you like me to get? I could go look up the page number, but it's also in the TOC in the book.
Conor wrote:Mark Twight would be one of them, and his TINSTAFL segment in Training for the New Alpinism shows his exploration into crossfit for mountain training.
LURE wrote:Crossfit does give you a strong, injury resistant body, and increases the efficiency of the cardiovascular system. So yeah, of course it will help people be physically fit and that will aid people. I do view it, though, as a weirdly contradictory type of fitness that is general in one sense, but at the same time very focused fitness in another sense - focused on the activity of crossfit itself, which I think is substantiated by the fact that there are crossfit competitions, and those guys are only good at crossfit, and I don't view the activity of crossfit as very transferable to other activities.
This is the misconception that harms so many people in endurance goals. The "cardiovascular system" isn't just breathing hard for long periods of time. Many view it as conditioning the heart and lungs. Since muscle fibers aren't created or destroyed in an adult human body the view should be taken that we are training the muscle fibers to be the kind we need them to be. That would be thin and covered in fat. Think of it this way...crossfit = the flightless chicken, with white meat for the breast, low in fat. Maffetone = duck, dark meat, greasy (fat). One can fly for short times, but mainly just pecks around the yard. The other can migrate 100's of miles.

While genetics can affect how well we are able to adapt, the underlying physiology doesn't change.
mtn_hound
Posts: 158
Joined: 9/15/2016
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Tips for Physical Training

Post by mtn_hound »

LURE wrote:
Conor wrote: Wanna be a fast big mountain climber/hiker? What does Anton Krupicka do? He runs and climbs in the mountains everyday. What does Kilian Jornet do? He runs and climbs in the mountain everyday. Wanna be a good cyclist? What does Chris Froome do? He rides his bike everyday. What does Michael Phelps do? Swims nearly every day. And they all eat pretty darn well too.

Pretty simple trend there. Genetics notwithstanding.
To a point. I'll stick with swimming, because it's what I know best. One of Phelps big challenges was that he swam so many different events, and even though they're all swimming, optimum training for 400 IM is very different from 100 free, for example. Mike Bottom coached Anthony Ervin, Nathan Adrian, and a whole bunch of other Olympic sprint medalists. He had sprinters from all over the world coming to train with him. A big part of his program was having his guys swim LESS. Piling on yards (i.e. the if you want to hike fast, hike more argument) was actually detrimental to peak performance. He advocated pick up basketball of all things as one of the key elements of his training program because it built explosiveness. Now I realize that we aren't sprinters, but the general point is that things you do to train for an activity may be very different from the activity itself.
User avatar
LURE
Posts: 1284
Joined: 6/27/2011
14ers: 34 
13ers: 10
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Tips for Physical Training

Post by LURE »

Conor wrote:
Conor wrote:Mark Twight would be one of them, and his TINSTAFL segment in Training for the New Alpinism shows his exploration into crossfit for mountain training.
LURE wrote:Crossfit does give you a strong, injury resistant body, and increases the efficiency of the cardiovascular system. So yeah, of course it will help people be physically fit and that will aid people. I do view it, though, as a weirdly contradictory type of fitness that is general in one sense, but at the same time very focused fitness in another sense - focused on the activity of crossfit itself, which I think is substantiated by the fact that there are crossfit competitions, and those guys are only good at crossfit, and I don't view the activity of crossfit as very transferable to other activities.
This is the misconception that harms so many people in endurance goals. The "cardiovascular system" isn't just breathing hard for long periods of time. Many view it as conditioning the heart and lungs. Since muscle fibers aren't created or destroyed in an adult human body the view should be taken that we are training the muscle fibers to be the kind we need them to be. That would be thin and covered in fat. Think of it this way...crossfit = the flightless chicken, with white meat for the breast, low in fat. Maffetone = duck, dark meat, greasy (fat). One can fly for short times, but mainly just pecks around the yard. The other can migrate 100's of miles.

While genetics can affect how well we are able to adapt, the underlying physiology doesn't change.
Mm, maybe the misconception in applying certain activities to endurance goals.

Coming from cycling and swimming background, I like to define endurance sports as sports where your goal is to increase your lactate threshold and time to exhaustion at lactate threshold, while teaching your body to be as effective with fat fuels as possible (more of a cycling perspective than swimming). So I think we very much agree on this, and why crossfit is less than ideal.

It sounds like you're saying it's only a slow twitch or fast twitch issue? Which is a genetic predisposition that varies form person to person is it not? Wouldn't we be targeting the muscle fibers we want to target instead of turning them into the kind we want? I don't think we can turn a slow twitch into a fast twitch... right?

And of course you want to condition the heart and lungs! The muscles can't do squat without a strong efficient heart and lungs combo to get them oxygen.
User avatar
DArcyS
Posts: 943
Joined: 5/11/2007
14ers: 58 
13ers: 544
Trip Reports (3)
 

Re: Tips for Physical Training

Post by DArcyS »

Conor wrote:
Jaggers wrote:There are a lot of different reasons why CrossFit works so well for 14ers, but I will leave that for you to look into if you're interested.


Please educate us. Many people would argue crossfit is awful for 14er training. Mark Twight would be one of them, and his TINSTAFL segment in Training for the New Alpinism shows his exploration into crossfit for mountain training.
Crossfit may work for 14ers because it hardly takes a fine-tuned athlete to climb a 14er. You need to train to do a 100-mile bike ride and you need to train to run a marathon, but you don't need to train to climb a 14er. So, if somebody does crossfit, they will improve their overall conditioning and some of that will be helpful in an activity where not much athleticism is required in the first place. Perhaps greater gains may be made through running or cycling or whatever, but for "14er training" you should do what you like because the end results between the various approaches is meaningless. After all, who really cares if one form of training gets you back to your car 15 minutes sooner than another form of training?
User avatar
Conor
Posts: 1112
Joined: 9/2/2014
14ers: 41  6  6 
13ers: 51 1 1
Trip Reports (7)
 

Re: Tips for Physical Training

Post by Conor »

LURE wrote:
It sounds like you're saying it's only a slow twitch or fast twitch issue? Which is a genetic predisposition that varies form person to person is it not? Wouldn't we be targeting the muscle fibers we want to target instead of turning them into the kind we want? I don't think we can turn a slow twitch into a fast twitch... right?
While there are pure "slow twitch" and pure "fast twitch" muscles, there are fibers that are "in between" (often referred to as "fast oxidative") and have been shown to be adaptable to stimulus given. In addition, it is shown that "fast twitch" muscles can be adapted to operate as "slow twitch." This is a simplified way of explaining it....

below is some text from a human physiology text book.
as a result of such training, some fast glycotic fibers are effectively converted to fast oxidative fibers. (However, because exercise does not alter the type of myosin present in muscle fibers, slow-twitch fibers remain slow and fast-twitch fibers remain fast.) Change include increases in the size and number of mitochondira within the fibers, and an increase in the number capillaries surrounding the fibers. In addition, the average diameter of the fibers decreases, which facilitates the movement of oxygen into the cells but also decreases the cells' force-generating capacity.
20170223_182809_001_resized.jpg
20170223_182809_001_resized.jpg (735.84 KiB) Viewed 4885 times
User avatar
LURE
Posts: 1284
Joined: 6/27/2011
14ers: 34 
13ers: 10
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Tips for Physical Training

Post by LURE »

Conor wrote:
LURE wrote:
It sounds like you're saying it's only a slow twitch or fast twitch issue? Which is a genetic predisposition that varies form person to person is it not? Wouldn't we be targeting the muscle fibers we want to target instead of turning them into the kind we want? I don't think we can turn a slow twitch into a fast twitch... right?
While there are pure "slow twitch" and pure "fast twitch" muscles, there are fibers that are "in between" (often referred to as "fast oxidative") and have been shown to be adaptable to stimulus given. In addition, it is shown that "fast twitch" muscles can be adapted to operate as "slow twitch." This is a simplified way of explaining it....

below is some text from a human physiology text book.
as a result of such training, some fast glycotic fibers are effectively converted to fast oxidative fibers. (However, because exercise does not alter the type of myosin present in muscle fibers, slow-twitch fibers remain slow and fast-twitch fibers remain fast.) Change include increases in the size and number of mitochondira within the fibers, and an increase in the number capillaries surrounding the fibers. In addition, the average diameter of the fibers decreases, which facilitates the movement of oxygen into the cells but also decreases the cells' force-generating capacity.
Badda boom. Learn something new everyday.
User avatar
two lunches
Posts: 1328
Joined: 5/30/2014
14ers: 37  2 
13ers: 59
Trip Reports (0)
 

Re: Tips for Physical Training

Post by two lunches »

DArcyS wrote: it hardly takes a fine-tuned athlete to climb a 14er. You need to train to do a 100-mile bike ride and you need to train to run a marathon, but you don't need to train to climb a 14er.
Hi Darcy- I don't really want to get into squabbling, but I do want to make a very succinct point that you are incorrect.
“To walk in nature is to witness a thousand miracles.” – Mary Davis
Post Reply