*PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Colorado peak questions, condition requests and other info.
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bdloftin77
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*PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by bdloftin77 »

Per John Kirk on the ListsofJohn facebook page:

"Between jobs, I've been busy with a project that will reshape peakbagging lists as we know them. I've been struggling with how to transition the changes, but have come to terms with the necessity of the change. In LoJ's history, none of the lists have been particularly disruptive, at least in Colorado. New technologies and "measuring sticks" are available to us now that I'm sure original list founders would have appreciated having access to. Many of us have completed lists of highest 'x' peaks, all the 13ers, 12ers, even down to 10ers in Colorado. We've completed the lists doing what we say we're trying to complete, which is interpolated 300'+ prominence. There's always been an elephant in the room, however. I'm referring to soft-ranks and probabilities that any of us have actually completed lists if we have not bagged all the soft-ranks. There's a better way, but in the process there are some surprising discoveries being made. I can say with certainty that no one has completed the 12ers in Colorado.
I want to preserve interpolated lists and history, but the data is changing in the main lists. You may have noticed a flurry of soft-rank bagging I've done the past few weekends. Yes, they are actually all P300+.
Just putting this out there as a heads up as it can't stay "under the LiDAR" forever, expect to see some followups to this post."

https://www.facebook.com/groups/7028807 ... 4094483389

In other language - both ListsofJohn and 14ers.com base ranked peaks off of a saddle that is averaged between the highest valley contours and lowest ridge contours. If a peak's prominence (average or interpolated) is 280-299 feet based off 40' contours, then there's the possibility that the saddle is actually lower than the estimated averaged location, closer to or possibly equal to the highest valley contours. Many of these peaks are not climbed, because their stated interpolated prominence is less than 300 feet. But John has been finding peaks in this category that definitely have more than 300 feet of prominence based off accurate publicly-accessible LiDAR data.

There are around 600 soft-ranked peaks in Colorado, many of which actually do have over 300' of prominence and are therefore legit ranked peaks. Here's a list (created by Luke Plumley) of the soft-ranked peaks in Colorado:

https://listsofjohn.com/customlists?lid=959

A first question might be, "Is North Massive ranked?" Kirk responded with a no. It only has 271' of prominence. This is the only soft-ranked Colorado 14er, so all 53/58 finishers are safe.

For county finishers, you might want to check the above list to see which soft-ranked peaks you haven't completed in your counties. There's a good chance that some of them are ranked. You'll have indeed finished the "X County Interpolated Ranked Peaks," but you might have not finished the "X County Ranked Peaks."
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by 12ersRule »

If this one is ranked, I'm adopting the 100m standard as my definition of ranked. If you don't like the game, move the goalposts, right?

https://listsofjohn.com/peak/16284
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by lukePlumley »

12ersRule wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:29 am If this one is ranked, I'm adopting the 100m standard as my definition of ranked. If you don't like the game, move the goalposts, right?

https://listsofjohn.com/peak/16284
I know a guy with a 12’ ladder. Will that help?

This is neat. Thanks for the updates! It will be very interesting to see what lists might all of a sudden have first completions available once again.
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by bergsteigen »

48 soft ranked 13ers… please let me have already walked/skied off most of these already. Haha!
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by goingup »

As long as Sunlight Spire becomes a Colorado 14er eliminating 99.999999% of finishers I am okay with all of this. :-D
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by Chicago Transplant »

Last year during "lockdown" when we weren't supposed to leave our counties for recreation, I took on the Eagle County soft ranked as a project. Happy to say I have completed all of them. My most prominent remaining in the county has 261' of prominence.

I have about 20 soft ranked 13ers I have not done, only West Eolus of which would worry me. If I had to back for the others that wouldn't be so bad, but I think that is the only technical one.
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by Flyingfish »

12ersRule wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:29 am If this one is ranked, I'm adopting the 100m standard as my definition of ranked. If you don't like the game, move the goalposts, right?

https://listsofjohn.com/peak/16284
I was the lead climbing instructor at that scout ranch for a few years and can tell you that it is a stiff climb or a super easy aid.
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by bdloftin77 »

12ersRule wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:29 am If this one is ranked, I'm adopting the 100m standard as my definition of ranked. If you don't like the game, move the goalposts, right?
Right?
Last edited by bdloftin77 on Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by DArcyS »

bdloftin77 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:14 am I can say with certainty that no one has completed the 12ers in Colorado. [quoting John Kirk]
The correct statement is "I can say with certainty that no one has completed the 12ers in Colorado according to a new criterion for establishing what constitutes a ranked peak."

There is no "certainty," just different ways of obtaining elevation data (i.e., more accurate means through time) and interpreting elevation data (i.e., the subjective 300' rule), where the elevation data of geologic features changes as a function of time (i.e., erosion and rising sea levels).

To each their own.
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by justiner »

DArcyS wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:42 pm
bdloftin77 wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:14 am I can say with certainty that no one has completed the 12ers in Colorado. [quoting John Kirk]
The correct statement is "I can say with certainty that no one has completed the 12ers in Colorado according to a new criterion for establishing what constitutes a ranked peak."
according to a new criterion for establishing what constitutes a ranked peak that I just made up :lol:
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by 12ersRule »

lukePlumley wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:48 am
12ersRule wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:29 am If this one is ranked, I'm adopting the 100m standard as my definition of ranked. If you don't like the game, move the goalposts, right?

https://listsofjohn.com/peak/16284
I know a guy with a 12’ ladder. Will that help?
It worked on UN8220! I think it may be a candidate for South Sheeprock other short class 5s as well?

Super easy getting up the rock. Getting off of it and putting weight back on the ladder was pretty nerve wracking though. Would've been really nice having someone
coaching at the base.
Ladder2.PNG
Ladder2.PNG (885.65 KiB) Viewed 3770 times
Ladder1.PNG
Ladder1.PNG (942.43 KiB) Viewed 3770 times
Flyingfish wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 1:37 pm I was the lead climbing instructor at that scout ranch for a few years and can tell you that it is a stiff climb or a super easy aid.
Super Easy Aid for a 5.11 sounds fabulous! Thanks!
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by Stratosfearsome »

That's cool- the more arbitrary peaks, the better.
Nobody climbs 14ers anymore, they’re too crowded.
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