*PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

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bdloftin77
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by bdloftin77 »

Trotter wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:34 pm
bergsteigen wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:58 pm Top of my list for demoted peaks is Bartlett. Please please! I know it will happen eventually.
Yeah I'm leaving that one behind. Soon it will cease to be ranked, or even a 13er I bet.

Sidenote, for anyone using true GPS to measure saddle or summit altitudes, I think most ones have a vertical accuracy of like +-50 feet. Not super crazy precise
The relative accuracy might be closer to correct than the absolute accuracy, provided you're using the same unit to measure both the saddle and the summit (i.e. both could be close to 50' off in the same vertical direction), so it still might give some clues as to the prominence of a peak. But definitely not definitive.

If your GPS can record RINEX and you're able to post-process it, then that's even more accurate than otherwise. But yes, generally GPS vertical elevations are not the most trustworthy.
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by TomPierce »

lukePlumley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:19 am https://listsofjohn.com/mobile/peak/1742

The Castles East is my guess, and this one would really complicate the 12ers endeavor!
And if I'm reading John's data correctly, this means Castles East is now on the ranked 5th class list (assuming it's 5th class, sure looks like it).

-Tom
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by bdloftin77 »

TomPierce wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:51 pm
lukePlumley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:19 am https://listsofjohn.com/mobile/peak/1742

The Castles East is my guess, and this one would really complicate the 12ers endeavor!
And if I'm reading John's data correctly, this means Castles East is now on the ranked 5th class list (assuming it's 5th class, sure looks like it).

-Tom
He said it definitely looked like 5th class, and sketchy-quality 5th at that.
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by Flyingfish »

bdloftin77 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:55 pm
TomPierce wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:51 pm
lukePlumley wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:19 am https://listsofjohn.com/mobile/peak/1742

The Castles East is my guess, and this one would really complicate the 12ers endeavor!
And if I'm reading John's data correctly, this means Castles East is now on the ranked 5th class list (assuming it's 5th class, sure looks like it).

-Tom
He said it definitely looked like 5th class, and sketchy-quality 5th at that.
From the quality of the other rocks in that area climbing it will be quite an endeavor potentially on a similar level, at least in rock quality to the north face of Uncompahgre.
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by Chicago Transplant »

Bartlett will go through a few more phases on the road to becoming an unranked 12er someday. Right now it is class 2, so who knows what the next phase will be? It may be some crazy crumbly 5th class bottleneck someday.

The other think LiDAR could help with is to determine whether or not peaks that are ranked but have interpolated summits should move around on the list. For example there are some 13580 peaks on the bi's list that may not be 13580 and maybe 13579 Chiefs Head or 13577 Evans B are actually bi's instead?

Or is 12998' Overlook Point really a 13er? Is "Sunlight Spire" truly an unranked 14er?
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by bdloftin77 »

Chicago Transplant wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:12 pm Bartlett will go through a few more phases on the road to becoming an unranked 12er someday. Right now it is class 2, so who knows what the next phase will be? It may be some crazy crumbly 5th class bottleneck someday.

The other think LiDAR could help with is to determine whether or not peaks that are ranked but have interpolated summits should move around on the list. For example there are some 13580 peaks on the bi's list that may not be 13580 and maybe 13579 Chiefs Head or 13577 Evans B are actually bi's instead?

Or is 12998' Overlook Point really a 13er? Is "Sunlight Spire" truly an unranked 14er?
Yeah, I have a bunch of questions like that, though probably less pertinent to the 14ers.com crowd and more to the LoJ crowd.

+ What's the actual order of the 14ers' elevations?
+ Was Sunlight Spire surveyed correctly in the first place? Is it higher or lower than we think it is?
+ Is Richthofen or Clark the high point of Jackson county?
+ Is Hesperus or Lavender the high point of Montezuma county?
+ Is Fishers Peak or Fishers Peak Mesa higher, and by how much?
+ Are High Dune, 8860, and Star Dune ranked?
+ Is Challenger Point a ranked 14er?
+ How high is Mt Powell A?
+ Is Gannett or Cloud the most prominent peak in Wyoming?
+ Are the eastern CO county high points where we think they are? What about the most prominent eastern county points?

But unless John finds some good help/some really good automation, 10 minutes a peak will take a while for the ~4400 interpolated ranked peaks in Colorado, let alone the ~600 soft-ranked ones.
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by Chicago Transplant »

bdloftin77 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:46 pm But unless John finds some good help/some really good automation, 10 minutes a peak will take a while for the ~4400 interpolated ranked peaks in Colorado, let alone the ~600 soft-ranked ones.
Haha, yeah. I have others on my list too but figured there isn't much people are going to care about. I realize how much time an effort like this takes and fully appreciate what John is doing. I don't expect that all of the peaks will be checked. Curious about the process though and if there are ways others can help out. Now that the cat is out of the bag, maybe there are others with time and skill to lend a hand?
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by bergsteigen »

Chicago Transplant wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:52 pm
bdloftin77 wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:46 pm But unless John finds some good help/some really good automation, 10 minutes a peak will take a while for the ~4400 interpolated ranked peaks in Colorado, let alone the ~600 soft-ranked ones.
Haha, yeah. I have others on my list too but figured there isn't much people are going to care about. I realize how much time an effort like this takes and fully appreciate what John is doing. I don't expect that all of the peaks will be checked. Curious about the process though and if there are ways others can help out. Now that the cat is out of the bag, maybe there are others with time and skill to lend a hand?
We need some machine learning algorithm, and a cloud server for a couple minutes/hours (?). Not sure I have the coding skillz for that undertaking. My company processes LIDAR data post earthquake down to cm level at least, but I’ve never learned how to do this. Hmmmm maybe that can be a SMART goal this upcoming year.

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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by peter303 »

I was under the impression the rather expensive aircraft LIDAR surveys were focused on potential landslides and avalanches. There may not be a lot over summits.

https://coloradosun.com/2021/03/01/sate ... servatory/

I heard a talk from that scientist a few years ago.
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by Furthermore »

Chicago Transplant wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:12 pm + Are High Dune, 8860, and Star Dune ranked?
Having done a recent GIS LIDAR project for something in the vicinity, I can confirm that High Dune is indeed ranked. I would have to spend some time but it would be easy for me to figure out 8860 and Star. (Matching of LIDAR tiles, easy but time consuming with my limited GIS skills)
bergsteigen wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 6:13 pm We need some machine learning algorithm, and a cloud server for a couple minutes/hours (?). Not sure I have the coding skillz for that undertaking. My company processes LIDAR data post earthquake down to cm level at least, but I’ve never learned how to do this. Hmmmm maybe that can be a SMART goal this upcoming year.

Bartlett: I have no desire to get caught or blown up. But I could get a job at the mine as a geologist. They are hiring.
Having e-mailed John a little for this project, I can confirm he is using an Algorithm.

EDIT: It should be noted that High Dune was ranked the day of the LIDAR flight (2014) and could currently be in a different position, have a different saddle, and/or summit elevation.
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by Anima »

Through some quick googling, I found that LiDAR Data can be found here:

https://prd-tnm.s3.amazonaws.com/LidarE ... dex.html#/

LiDAR data is not available for the entire country, but a significant portion is.

Following the directions on the website, you can find LiDAR products for a certain area.

Once you find the product for a given area, click on the green icon to the right of the product name and options will be given to open the liDAR data through compatible software.

I used Potree, and was able to use both the point tool and a 2d rendering of the height profile to find the elevation of summits.

This software is not intuitive and took me a long time to figure out.

I wonder if this is the method John (and others?) are using to find new elevations.
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Re: *PSA* - Ranked Lists Changing based off LiDAR Analysis

Post by Boggy B »

jkirk wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:50 am As much as I'd like to keep the cat in the bag until a more thorough listing is available, I'll share my findings thus far. Some of it is random, because there are areas I have been wanting to visit and seeking out "new peaks." Since I'm doing the work, I may as well be selfish about what comes first. :roll:

The goods:
https://listsofjohn.com/lidar/lidar.php

Enjoy!
Thanks John.

Stoked to see The Castles on this list. My suspicion was aroused by the inordinate amount of effort that had gone into proving it wasn't ranked.

I've been working on (or was, pre-baby) an adjacent project to make my drone scout ice while I drink beer, but I never got around to sourcing the LiDAR elevations nor subjecting my CPU to the kind of abuse required to crunch those rasters unattended.

Great work!
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