DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

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jmanner
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by jmanner »

Jorts wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:17 pm Worst tangent ever. My bad. :-#
Yes it was. The problem with the arguments about overpopulation is we’re about to hit a population crash. Western Europe, North America, Russia, China, Japan, etc all have more death than births or are headed that way. The baby train is coming to a stop; poo-pooing humanity’s population is lazy “solution” to the problems of our wastefulness. We need to find a way to use less on an individual scale not proclaim that we need to kill half of humanity, or whatever that loser on the forum always is suggesting.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by Jorts »

jmanner wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:40 pm We need to find a way to use less on an individual scale not proclaim that we need to kill half of humanity, or whatever that loser on the forum always is suggesting.
Who suggests that?
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by timisimaginary »

jmanner wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:40 pmWe need to find a way to use less on an individual scale not proclaim that we need to kill half of humanity, or whatever that loser on the forum always is suggesting.
but killing off half of humanity would be a snap.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by greenonion »

Jorts wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 3:15 pm
jmanner wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 1:40 pm We need to find a way to use less on an individual scale not proclaim that we need to kill half of humanity, or whatever that loser on the forum always is suggesting.
Who suggests that?
Rhetorical I do believe.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by larkinrx2 »

Burkart wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:02 pm....The best part is that these clowns don't even have money. Nobody with deep pockets (or a functioning brain) is going to squat on worthless mining claims for seventy years while waiting for the silver boom of the 1880s to return. Last I checked, reenacting the Sherman Silver Act is not in either party's platform... Earth Energy Resources LLC might have turned a tidy profit if Maury Reiber had just poured his savings into the S&P 500 instead....
not directly the Sherman Act but here is the goverment basically doing the same thing again with the same issue of coin meant to use up all that silver
https://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coin ... al-series

Image
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by Matt »

The Denver Post often sides w the most moneyed interest on issues relating to individual rights vs those of large companies, developers, or profit-making ventures. (At least that is what I see) Today, they've published comments from whoever owns this land.
I am no fan of private peak closings, but he sounds mostly reasonable--forgive me if I don't believe protecting alpine tundra means a thing to a mining claim owner. Of course, the writer or his editor decide how he's supposed to sound.
They do a good job deflecting toward insurance companies and our stupid legal reality of frivolous lawsuits that actually win to depict Mr Rieber almost as a victim.
I admit to feeling more sympathetic toward him and less upset about the issue now. Well done, DP!

Landowner who closed access to four fourteeners says he wants to reopen them
Click here for the link. They use a paywall, which for some reason, doesn't block my non-subscribing access.

If you can't see it, here's the text:
The landowner who closed public access to a cluster of popular fourteeners in Park County this month has no desire to make the peaks off-limits permanently, but was motivated by safety and liability concerns that he wants addressed.

Access to Mount Lincoln, Mount Democrat, Mount Bross and Mount Cameron — which can be climbed together in one day — was closed last week by landowner John Reiber. Much of the so-called “DeCaLiBron Loop” trail is on land that he owns.

“I hope that closing the private property prior to the hiking season will bring attention to the safety, liability and resource damage issues we are facing,” Reiber said in a lengthy email to The Denver Post, adding that he anticipates reopening the peaks when the Kite Lake area opens for the season. That area, where the trailhead to the peaks is located, is operated by the town of Alma.

“I do want the public to enjoy the area,” Reiber said. “However I, like most if not all property owners, do not want to assume the liability for the people who choose to ignore rules or guidelines that have been developed and implemented to ensure their safety.”

Reiber has worked for years with the Colorado Fourteeners Initiative, the Colorado Mountain Club and the U.S. Forest Service to address issues on his land. The closure this month alarmed some in the fourteener community, but as a practical matter, few people climb those peaks before the snowpack melts. That led to speculation that Reiber was simply aiming to get the public’s attention about ongoing problems, especially because he has consistently stated a desire to keep the peaks open to the public.
Beauty abounds on Colorado fourteeners. This photo was taken on Mount Bross. (Courtesy Laura Sanders)

“It’s entirely within his legal right to say either ‘You’re allowed to come to my property under these conditions,’ or ‘You’re not allowed,’ ” said Lloyd Athearn, executive director of the Colorado Fourteeners Initiative. “Obviously if it were a long-term closure, there would be a lot of unhappy people. Everything we have heard is that it’s going to be closed for the month of May. The vast bulk of people don’t start climbing until most of the snow is off, which is in June.”

The peaks were closed in 2005 for the same reasons that prompted this closure, but they reopened in 2009 with rules intended to keep people on trails. The loop trail actually skirts the summit of Mount Bross because it has different ownership, but many climbers violate that closure so they can officially tag the peak.

Throughout the loop, leaving the trail involves safety issues because of old mining structures, Reiber said, and it harms high alpine tundra. Vandalism is a problem, too.

“Property corner monuments or location certificates have been taken, moved or thrown down the mountain,” Reiber said. “Buildings, doors, gates and signs have been destroyed. Mining equipment has been stolen or vandalized. Pipe and other materials used for mining have been stolen or thrown down the hill. Many signs have been used as targets, even though discharging of firearms is not allowed.”

Reiber says the Colorado Recreational Use Statute needs to be amended to provide more protection for landowners who allow public recreation on their land.

“I have been advised to purchase more insurance,” Reiber said. “However, the underwriters require the land be closed and no trespassing signs be posted before they are willing to provide insurance coverage. As an alternative, having all hikers sign a liability waiver would also be acceptable to the underwriters. Purchasing insurance that will not provide protection if someone trespasses or has not signed a liability waiver certainly complicates this problem.”

Reiber noted that there is a coalition of groups working to resolve his concerns.

“I believe that resolutions can be identified and implemented that will enable the peaks to be opened for all who wish to hike them and enjoy the adventure associated with them,” Reiber said. “Now is the time for interested parties to get involved in understanding the challenges and identifying the resolutions that will enable all to enjoy the DeCaLiBron peaks in a safe and respectful manner.”
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by XterraRob »

I would charge $150 to access the summit of Bross & $200 for South Bross, truly two unique summit experiences you will get nowhere else.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by greenonion »

Matt wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:23 am The Denver Post often sides w the most moneyed interest on issues relating to individual rights vs those of large companies, developers, or profit-making ventures. (At least that is what I see) Today, they've published comments from whoever owns this land.
I am no fan of private peak closings, but he sounds mostly reasonable--forgive me if I don't believe protecting alpine tundra means a thing to a mining claim owner. Of course, the writer or his editor decide how he's supposed to sound.
They do a good job deflecting toward insurance companies and our stupid legal reality of frivolous lawsuits that actually win to depict Mr Rieber almost as a victim.
I admit to feeling more sympathetic toward him and less upset about the issue now. Well done, DP!

Landowner who closed access to four fourteeners says he wants to reopen them
Click here for the link. They use a paywall, which for some reason, doesn't block my non-subscribing access.

If you can't see it, here's the text:
The landowner who closed public access to a cluster of popular fourteeners in Park County this month has no desire to make the peaks off-limits permanently, but was motivated by safety and liability concerns that he wants addressed.

Access to Mount Lincoln, Mount Democrat, Mount Bross and Mount Cameron — which can be climbed together in one day — was closed last week by landowner John Reiber. Much of the so-called “DeCaLiBron Loop” trail is on land that he owns.

“I hope that closing the private property prior to the hiking season will bring attention to the safety, liability and resource damage issues we are facing,” Reiber said in a lengthy email to The Denver Post, adding that he anticipates reopening the peaks when the Kite Lake area opens for the season. That area, where the trailhead to the peaks is located, is operated by the town of Alma.

“I do want the public to enjoy the area,” Reiber said. “However I, like most if not all property owners, do not want to assume the liability for the people who choose to ignore rules or guidelines that have been developed and implemented to ensure their safety.”

Reiber has worked for years with the Colorado Fourteeners Initiative, the Colorado Mountain Club and the U.S. Forest Service to address issues on his land. The closure this month alarmed some in the fourteener community, but as a practical matter, few people climb those peaks before the snowpack melts. That led to speculation that Reiber was simply aiming to get the public’s attention about ongoing problems, especially because he has consistently stated a desire to keep the peaks open to the public.
Beauty abounds on Colorado fourteeners. This photo was taken on Mount Bross. (Courtesy Laura Sanders)

“It’s entirely within his legal right to say either ‘You’re allowed to come to my property under these conditions,’ or ‘You’re not allowed,’ ” said Lloyd Athearn, executive director of the Colorado Fourteeners Initiative. “Obviously if it were a long-term closure, there would be a lot of unhappy people. Everything we have heard is that it’s going to be closed for the month of May. The vast bulk of people don’t start climbing until most of the snow is off, which is in June.”

The peaks were closed in 2005 for the same reasons that prompted this closure, but they reopened in 2009 with rules intended to keep people on trails. The loop trail actually skirts the summit of Mount Bross because it has different ownership, but many climbers violate that closure so they can officially tag the peak.

Throughout the loop, leaving the trail involves safety issues because of old mining structures, Reiber said, and it harms high alpine tundra. Vandalism is a problem, too.

“Property corner monuments or location certificates have been taken, moved or thrown down the mountain,” Reiber said. “Buildings, doors, gates and signs have been destroyed. Mining equipment has been stolen or vandalized. Pipe and other materials used for mining have been stolen or thrown down the hill. Many signs have been used as targets, even though discharging of firearms is not allowed.”

Reiber says the Colorado Recreational Use Statute needs to be amended to provide more protection for landowners who allow public recreation on their land.

“I have been advised to purchase more insurance,” Reiber said. “However, the underwriters require the land be closed and no trespassing signs be posted before they are willing to provide insurance coverage. As an alternative, having all hikers sign a liability waiver would also be acceptable to the underwriters. Purchasing insurance that will not provide protection if someone trespasses or has not signed a liability waiver certainly complicates this problem.”

Reiber noted that there is a coalition of groups working to resolve his concerns.

“I believe that resolutions can be identified and implemented that will enable the peaks to be opened for all who wish to hike them and enjoy the adventure associated with them,” Reiber said. “Now is the time for interested parties to get involved in understanding the challenges and identifying the resolutions that will enable all to enjoy the DeCaLiBron peaks in a safe and respectful manner.”
Thanks for sharing this. Sounds like the owner is indeed trying to be reasonable, and while we as a hiking community don’t have to be sympathetic we should at least be reasonable and respectful in return. That should help resolve matters sooner and once and for all. So far it’s good to see this is temporary at this point in time.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by madbuck »

Reiber says the Colorado Recreational Use Statute needs to be amended to provide more protection for landowners who allow public recreation on their land.

“I have been advised to purchase more insurance,” Reiber said. “However, the underwriters require the land be closed and no trespassing signs be posted before they are willing to provide insurance coverage. As an alternative, having all hikers sign a liability waiver would also be acceptable to the underwriters. Purchasing insurance that will not provide protection if someone trespasses or has not signed a liability waiver certainly complicates this problem.”
These quotes, and the video posted way earlier in the thread, get to the root of the problem, and possible solutions.
As angry and defiant as we (including myself) might be, I understand the problem. If we want "freedom to roam" then we need reasonable protections for landowners.
So what are the issues with the https://www.americanwhitewater.org/reso ... tatute.htm and how can they be addressed?

It looks like it limits damage to $350k for a single person, and about a million for an incident with 2 or more people.
That still ain't nothin'.

And note that charging for access actually removes that limited protection. That's good for "Us" in theory, but the landowner still has to decide if it's worth it.
And there's a question of scale for landowners of popular recreational use, where thousands of people with a very small but non-zero chance of litigation adds up.

To me, it "feels like" we need a common-sense definition of truly at-your-own-risk access. It seems like 'No Trespassing!" but not enforcing it is ironically the closest we've got.

Within the CO Recreational framework, though, how could we improve it? A few ideas:
1. An interested Colorado-14ers-type-initiative group helps a fund specifically dedicated towards the insurance of these sort of things for 14er access. Consider it "social switchbacks" toward our goal of "sustainable access," if you will.
2. The state of Colorado, which touts it's recreational industries as being important to The Economy, but also brands itself as respecting private land/mineral/water rights that are decades old, finds a mechanism to reduce even the limited liability (remember, these are cases not due to attractive nuisances, willful failures, etc.) to $0, through a fund derived from some sources of vast moneys derived from The Economy.

I like the 2nd option the best because I hope it would encourage even more land available for recreational use.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by zinj »

The popularity and high use of Bross warrants consideration of a specific bill in the statehouse to address THIS ONE INSTANCE of liability and land rights. The Bross Bill, if a cute name helps sell it.

Or...do all that other stuff.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by timisimaginary »

zinj wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 7:34 am The popularity and high use of Bross warrants consideration of a specific bill in the statehouse to address THIS ONE INSTANCE of liability and land rights. The Bross Bill, if a cute name helps sell it.
The "You're Not the Bross of Me" Act of 2021
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by peter303 »

XterraRob wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 10:37 am I would charge $150 to access the summit of Bross & $200 for South Bross, truly two unique summit experiences you will get nowhere else.
Pikes Peak summit on a summer holiday weekend might get close. And you can spend $20 on a road pass or $58 on the cogway.
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