DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

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AnnaG22
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by AnnaG22 »

Jorts wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:33 pm
supranihilest wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:23 pm
Jorts wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 3:07 pm [snip]

But I still think exploiting an area for tourism preserves precious spaces better than resource extraction.
Such philosophy also allows the masses to benefit from a finite resource (in this case, land) vs all or most of the benefits going to the few. I am a proponent of those ideals.
There are just too many humans and we all want comfortable, meaningful lives requiring more stuff. Only economists and idiots think exponential growth is good in a finite world. ::mini fatalist rant over::
As Ed liked to say (while tossing his empty beer cans out the jeep window): "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell"

And oof, does the correlation of those two graphs sting.
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"I get scared sometimes—lots of times—but it's not bad. You know? I feel close to myself. When I'm out there at night, I feel close to my own body, I can feel my blood moving, my skin and my fingernails, everything, it's like I'm full of electricity and I'm glowing in the dark—I'm on fire almost—I'm burning away into nothing—but it doesn't matter because I know exactly who I am." from The Things They Carried
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by Alpine Guy »

Plotting exponential data linearly always looks like that. Lies, damn lies and statistics, you know.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by peter303 »

Malthus said the world was doomed 223 years ago.
Yes everyone is ten times richer and lives twice as long.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Pro ... _321128165
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by Jorts »

peter303 wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 8:45 am Yes everyone is ten times richer and lives twice as long.
So increasing lifespans and material wealth equates to a healthy environment globally?
Here is some evidence that our impact on the planet has lasting effects indicative of a new epoch:

1) Fossil fuel extraction and carbon emissions resulting in increased carbon levels globally
2) Plastics and other new materials becoming ubiquitous in the environment
3) Continued reshaping of the land - deforestation, farming, drilling, mining, landfills, dams...
4) Mass extinction

We've been essentially pooping where we eat since the dawn of industrialization. Not saying we haven't all reaped the benefits of industrialization. Just saying it isn't sustainable. Malthus had that right.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by Mitsugi »

Darn! The mountain is closed for a whole month! What will they want next? Fully vaccinated people to walk around with masks on?!
Trolling unintentionally since 6/30/2019...
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by EigenDylan »

There are some major issues with the idea that overpopulation is the root cause of poverty, climate change, ecological destruction. For one, it has a long history of being used to justify racism, eugenics, and some of the worst atrocities in human history. More importantly, Malthusian and Neo-Malthusian arguments are straight up wrong. Birth rates decrease in places with a higher quality of life. Food supplies grow in tandem with population (we in fact produce far more food than we need). The tragedy of the commons is not an inescapable law whenever a resource is shared. The environmental movement has long been intertwined with the harmful myth of overpopulation, but more and more people and organizations are rejecting it. If anyone wants to learn more about this, I've gathered some articles below. I also highly recommend the books Governing the Commons by Ostrom and The Ecology of Freedom by Bookchin.

Articles:
Ostrom's 8 Principles for Managing a Commons
https://www.onthecommons.org/magazine/e ... g-commmons

The Population Myth
http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Ar ... ives8.html

Why Malthus is Still Wrong
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ill-wrong/

The Overpopulation Myth and its Dangerous Connotations
https://www.sierraclub.org/washington/b ... nnotations

The Tragedy of "The Tragedy of the Commons"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/vo ... e-commons/
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by Jorts »

EigenDylan wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:18 am There are some major issues with the idea that overpopulation is the root cause of poverty, climate change, ecological destruction.
I did not mention poverty. But with the other two points, couldn’t disagree more. We’re entering the Anthropocene. Yes, there has always been climate change. It is the current RATE of climate change that is alarming. There have been several mass extinctions before humans. But the current one and the rate at which it is occurring is a result of us.

I could also throw down a bunch of links to support my position. But what’s the point? Just use logic. Go visit the Pacific Garbage Patch. View a satellite image of the Amazon from 30 years ago and compare it to today. Observe arctic ice sheets from 30 years ago and today. Test your fish for polymeric content. Humans are animals. And we are dominating our environment and the other species at a detriment to the planet BUT at a benefit to our quality of life. For now.

The Titanic saw the iceberg. But there was too much forward momentum to avoid it.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by Jorts »

In lieu of a bunch of links, I’d urge anyone who is curious about the legacy we’re leaving for future generations should we continue with our current pattern of consumption and growth to give this thoughtful volume a read.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by disentangled »

Jorts wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:47 am
EigenDylan wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:18 am There are some major issues with the idea that overpopulation is the root cause of poverty, climate change, ecological destruction.
I did not mention poverty. But with the other two points, couldn’t disagree more. We’re entering the Anthropocene. Yes, there has always been climate change. It is the current RATE of climate change that is alarming. There have been several mass extinctions before humans. But the current one and the rate at which it is occurring is a result of us.

I could also throw down a bunch of links to support my position. But what’s the point? Just use logic. Go visit the Pacific Garbage Patch. View a satellite image of the Amazon from 30 years ago and compare it to today. Observe arctic ice sheets from 30 years ago and today. Test your fish for polymeric content. Humans are animals. And we are dominating our environment and the other species at a detriment to the planet BUT at a benefit to our quality of life. For now.

The Titanic saw the iceberg. But there was too much forward momentum to avoid it.
so what's the problem? humans are overpopulating to extinction, and nature will find its own ways to regenerate. you can make all the arguments you like but humans will continue f ing and reproducing and overpopulating just like we have since we killed off all the mastodons.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by EigenDylan »

Jorts, I agree that humans are causing ecological destruction and climate change, and almost everything else you said in your comment. But the root cause is not the sheer number of people or the rate of growth. It is how we organize our economy and our extractive relationship with nature. Yes, individuals are the end consumers of products that produce plastic pollution in our oceans, and individuals are the ones driving their cars to work every day. But, we have set up our infrastructure and economy so that it is impossible for everyone to live in an ecologically sustainable way. Nearly all foods and products come in disposable plastic packaging because that is the cheapest way for companies to do it. Our cities are built to encourage car use and discourage walking, biking, and public transportation because American car companies lobbied for it to be that way. We can improve quality of life and protect the environment, we just have to challenge the power structures and incentives that have brought us down this path so far.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by speth »

shelly+ wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 12:05 pm
Jorts wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:47 am
EigenDylan wrote: Mon May 03, 2021 11:18 am There are some major issues with the idea that overpopulation is the root cause of poverty, climate change, ecological destruction.
I did not mention poverty. But with the other two points, couldn’t disagree more. We’re entering the Anthropocene. Yes, there has always been climate change. It is the current RATE of climate change that is alarming. There have been several mass extinctions before humans. But the current one and the rate at which it is occurring is a result of us.

I could also throw down a bunch of links to support my position. But what’s the point? Just use logic. Go visit the Pacific Garbage Patch. View a satellite image of the Amazon from 30 years ago and compare it to today. Observe arctic ice sheets from 30 years ago and today. Test your fish for polymeric content. Humans are animals. And we are dominating our environment and the other species at a detriment to the planet BUT at a benefit to our quality of life. For now.

The Titanic saw the iceberg. But there was too much forward momentum to avoid it.
so what's the problem? humans are overpopulating to extinction, and nature will find its own ways to regenerate. you can make all the arguments you like but humans will continue f ing and reproducing and overpopulating just like we have since we killed off all the mastodons.
Uuuhhhhh, so anyway, how about those mountains?

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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?

Post by Jorts »

Worst tangent ever. My bad. :-#
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