DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
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- Harrison1991
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
CaptCo would’ve loved this thread
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
The problem here is that this is not a hypothetical we're dealing with. This isnt "just politics." This is real life and in real life there are consequences. The consequence for some selfish jerkoffs shitting all over private land and other jerkoffs being overly litigious is that now access has been cut off. You can double down on your useless idealogical viewpoints if you want and "protest" these consequences by trespassing but there will be consequences to that as well. Even posting jokes about punching the landowner will likely bring consequences. I know I would be less apt to allow access on my land to people talking about punching me in the face.
Tldr: This is why we can't have nice things.
Tldr: This is why we can't have nice things.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
This.Dayute wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:39 pm The problem here is that this is not a hypothetical we're dealing with. This isnt "just politics." This is real life and in real life there are consequences. The consequence for some selfish jerkoffs shitting all over private land and other jerkoffs being overly litigious is that now access has been cut off. You can double down on your useless idealogical viewpoints if you want and "protest" these consequences by trespassing but there will be consequences to that as well. Even posting jokes about punching the landowner will likely bring consequences. I know I would be less apt to allow access on my land to people talking about punching me in the face.
Tldr: This is why we can't have nice things.
I don't agree with denying access but I was up there in 2019 and get why the owners are doing it and respect their decision because.... well they own it. The fact that they CAN own it is a completely different matter but the law allows them to own the land and we generally have to follow laws. This is not a hill to die on. There are a few other mountains to climb while they get this figured out.
- cottonmountaineering
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
the govt owns the land, which is why this sucksPJ88 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:45 pmThis.Dayute wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:39 pm The problem here is that this is not a hypothetical we're dealing with. This isnt "just politics." This is real life and in real life there are consequences. The consequence for some selfish jerkoffs shitting all over private land and other jerkoffs being overly litigious is that now access has been cut off. You can double down on your useless idealogical viewpoints if you want and "protest" these consequences by trespassing but there will be consequences to that as well. Even posting jokes about punching the landowner will likely bring consequences. I know I would be less apt to allow access on my land to people talking about punching me in the face.
Tldr: This is why we can't have nice things.
I don't agree with denying access but I was up there in 2019 and get why the owners are doing it and respect their decision because.... well they own it. The fact that they CAN own it is a completely different matter but the law allows them to own the land and we generally have to follow laws. This is not a hill to die on. There are a few other mountains to climb while they get this figured out.
"A mining claim is a parcel of land for which the claimant has asserted a right of possession and the right to develop and extract a discovered, valuable, mineral deposit. This right does not include exclusive surface rights (see Public Law 84-167)."
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
I stand corrected. Carry on.
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
The claims have been patented (many years ago) so claim holder takes possession (title and deed) to the land including surface rights. The government no longer owns the land. (Mining Law of 1872)cottonmountaineering wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:48 pm
the govt owns the land, which is why this sucks
"A mining claim is a parcel of land for which the claimant has asserted a right of possession and the right to develop and extract a discovered, valuable, mineral deposit. This right does not include exclusive surface rights (see Public Law 84-167)."
from wiki....
All mining claims are initially unpatented claims, which give the right only for those activities necessary to exploration and mining, and last only as long as the claim is worked every year. For instance, the failure to prosecute the work on the tunnel for six months is considered the abandonment of rights to all the undiscovered veins on the line of the tunnels. In addition, at least $100 worth of labor shall be performed or improvements made annually. If this does not occur, the claim or mine upon which such failure occurred shall be made to relocation in the same manner as if no location of the same had ever been made. The original mining law gave miners the opportunity to obtain patents (deeds from the government), much as farmers could obtain title under the Homestead Act. The owner of a patented claim can put it to any legal use. The process of patenting claims has been perhaps the most controversial part of the mining law. Because of a Congress-imposed moratorium, the federal government has not accepted any new applications for mining claim patents since October 1, 1994.[26]
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- cottonmountaineering
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
did not know thatrijaca wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:21 pmThe claims have been patented (many years ago) so claim holder takes possession (title and deed) to the land including surface rights. The government no longer owns the land. (Mining Law of 1872)cottonmountaineering wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:48 pm
the govt owns the land, which is why this sucks
"A mining claim is a parcel of land for which the claimant has asserted a right of possession and the right to develop and extract a discovered, valuable, mineral deposit. This right does not include exclusive surface rights (see Public Law 84-167)."
from wiki....
All mining claims are initially unpatented claims, which give the right only for those activities necessary to exploration and mining, and last only as long as the claim is worked every year. For instance, the failure to prosecute the work on the tunnel for six months is considered the abandonment of rights to all the undiscovered veins on the line of the tunnels. In addition, at least $100 worth of labor shall be performed or improvements made annually. If this does not occur, the claim or mine upon which such failure occurred shall be made to relocation in the same manner as if no location of the same had ever been made. The original mining law gave miners the opportunity to obtain patents (deeds from the government), much as farmers could obtain title under the Homestead Act. The owner of a patented claim can put it to any legal use. The process of patenting claims has been perhaps the most controversial part of the mining law. Because of a Congress-imposed moratorium, the federal government has not accepted any new applications for mining claim patents since October 1, 1994.[26]
- amderr22
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
The cost of owning those claims is much higher than $176/year. From my conversations with the owners, between replacing vandalized signage, paying for limited liability insurance, and taxes, they spend more than $6,000 annually to maintain things and keep it open to the public. For example, he's had to replace a gate on Mount Lincoln four times after groups kept destroying it - that isn't cheap. As for mining accidents, they definitely happen in Colorado. Just last summer someone fell into a shaft in Araphaoe National Forest. They sued, but the court found it would be impossible for the forest service to close of and sign all the mines on their land, given there are tens of thousands, many of which are unknown. It has not happened on the Decalibron - but I am sure that is partially due to the re-route and signs installed 14 years ago to avoid the very worst of the mining areas. At the end of the day, there's significant uncertainty. We're working on changing the laws that involve this to reduce that uncertainty, and help open up more private lands to public access. That's the goal, at least.justiner wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:35 am Has there been a SAR mission in recent memory because a 14er hiker came upon old mining site so deleterious as to become injured and require assistance? I hear of the threat of mine shafts caving in all the time when this group of mountains come up, but never any evidence that this has happened to a hiker. I've heard plenty of people just getting injured hiking it. Or if you hiked Bartlett, all bets are off and no one is going to have sympathy from rockfall happening b/c of mining activity - that's a pretty big "duh".
I had a buddy that grew up in Leadville in the 80's and the afterschool activity was, "try not to die in a mining shaft", but they really had to work to get into stupid trouble.
Anyways, the Mining Act sucks and we're still paying the price for it. The environment is paying the price for it, and these mining claim owners are paying less a year to hold onto the land then I pay for health insurance for a month? The $176 in paperwork fees - that's a true number?
Also Scott, why do you say the Angel of Shavano is on PP? The summit area is and land a little to the south - that's owned by CFI, but it's news to me that the Angel of Shavano itself is. Caltopo doesn't show any PP.
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Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
random question if you know the answer, why do they still want to own the property, and not sell it to the govt/CFI?amderr22 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:51 pmThe cost of owning those claims is much higher than $176/year. From my conversations with the owners, between replacing vandalized signage, paying for limited liability insurance, and taxes, they spend more than $6,000 annually to maintain things and keep it open to the public. For example, he's had to replace a gate on Mount Lincoln four times after groups kept destroying it - that isn't cheap. As for mining accidents, they definitely happen in Colorado. Just last summer someone fell into a shaft in Araphaoe National Forest. They sued, but the court found it would be impossible for the forest service to close of and sign all the mines on their land, given there are tens of thousands, many of which are unknown. It has not happened on the Decalibron - but I am sure that is partially due to the re-route and signs installed 14 years ago to avoid the very worst of the mining areas. At the end of the day, there's significant uncertainty. We're working on changing the laws that involve this to reduce that uncertainty, and help open up more private lands to public access. That's the goal, at least.justiner wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:35 am Has there been a SAR mission in recent memory because a 14er hiker came upon old mining site so deleterious as to become injured and require assistance? I hear of the threat of mine shafts caving in all the time when this group of mountains come up, but never any evidence that this has happened to a hiker. I've heard plenty of people just getting injured hiking it. Or if you hiked Bartlett, all bets are off and no one is going to have sympathy from rockfall happening b/c of mining activity - that's a pretty big "duh".
I had a buddy that grew up in Leadville in the 80's and the afterschool activity was, "try not to die in a mining shaft", but they really had to work to get into stupid trouble.
Anyways, the Mining Act sucks and we're still paying the price for it. The environment is paying the price for it, and these mining claim owners are paying less a year to hold onto the land then I pay for health insurance for a month? The $176 in paperwork fees - that's a true number?
Also Scott, why do you say the Angel of Shavano is on PP? The summit area is and land a little to the south - that's owned by CFI, but it's news to me that the Angel of Shavano itself is. Caltopo doesn't show any PP.
Re: DeCaLiBron Closed to public access?
Silver is coming back! You just wait!cottonmountaineering wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:58 pmrandom question if you know the answer, why do they still want to own the property, and not sell it to the govt/CFI?amderr22 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:51 pmThe cost of owning those claims is much higher than $176/year. From my conversations with the owners, between replacing vandalized signage, paying for limited liability insurance, and taxes, they spend more than $6,000 annually to maintain things and keep it open to the public. For example, he's had to replace a gate on Mount Lincoln four times after groups kept destroying it - that isn't cheap. As for mining accidents, they definitely happen in Colorado. Just last summer someone fell into a shaft in Araphaoe National Forest. They sued, but the court found it would be impossible for the forest service to close of and sign all the mines on their land, given there are tens of thousands, many of which are unknown. It has not happened on the Decalibron - but I am sure that is partially due to the re-route and signs installed 14 years ago to avoid the very worst of the mining areas. At the end of the day, there's significant uncertainty. We're working on changing the laws that involve this to reduce that uncertainty, and help open up more private lands to public access. That's the goal, at least.justiner wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 10:35 am Has there been a SAR mission in recent memory because a 14er hiker came upon old mining site so deleterious as to become injured and require assistance? I hear of the threat of mine shafts caving in all the time when this group of mountains come up, but never any evidence that this has happened to a hiker. I've heard plenty of people just getting injured hiking it. Or if you hiked Bartlett, all bets are off and no one is going to have sympathy from rockfall happening b/c of mining activity - that's a pretty big "duh".
I had a buddy that grew up in Leadville in the 80's and the afterschool activity was, "try not to die in a mining shaft", but they really had to work to get into stupid trouble.
Anyways, the Mining Act sucks and we're still paying the price for it. The environment is paying the price for it, and these mining claim owners are paying less a year to hold onto the land then I pay for health insurance for a month? The $176 in paperwork fees - that's a true number?
Also Scott, why do you say the Angel of Shavano is on PP? The summit area is and land a little to the south - that's owned by CFI, but it's news to me that the Angel of Shavano itself is. Caltopo doesn't show any PP.
Seriously doubt it’s altruistic, my guess is they are waiting for the day they can make some real money. $6,000 is not much money to spend on property of that size.
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'Life is too short to ski groomers'
"That man's only desire was to stand, once only, on the summit of that glorious wedge of rock...I think anyone who loves the mountains as much as that can claim to be a mountaineer, too."-Hermann Buhl, Nanga Parbat Pilgrimage