Ultramarathon Deaths

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Monster5
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by Monster5 »

Speaking with the RMNP rangers, twisted ankles and lower extremity rescues account for the vast majority of their calls. Pretty much daily.
Boots may be cumbersome for an experienced mountain athlete, but I'd sure as hell swaddle my visiting top heavy relatives from the flatlands in the burliest boots I could find.

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China's ban is "indefinite." They'll probably retract the ban after investigation and implement some kind of guidelines within a governing body. Fairly standard stuff, and likely needed with this kind of incident occurring on an organized run.
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DArcyS
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by DArcyS »

justiner wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:59 pm
how many deaths were attributed to a severely sprained ankle?

And what do you suggest runners use in an ultramarathons, besides running shoes?

And what are your independent reports in general comparing ankle sprains and types of footwear in general? I may be a n=1, but what are you basing your claims other than yourself and your own opinion? I think it's not far off that you are spreading FUD on a certain type of shoe since it's not what you prefer, which would also be n=1, yeah?
I'm not going to look up my past posts on this subject, but I've suggested that trail runners are appropriate for people who run ultra events, like the Hardrock 100, and are training for such events. And I've suggested trail runners are fine for people who only hike 14ers in the summer months and who would benefit from the lighter foot wear because, to be frank, they're lacking in conditioning. Otherwise, there are a whole host of factors to be considered as to trail runner vs. boot.

Going back to my original post here, I think I was asking Jorts for his opinion based on his (presumed) experiences of SAR. (I think he's associated with SAR, not sure.)

In the end, I'm attempting to gain information, but I think I have more than n=1, regardless. I've read more than one account of a severely sprained ankle. As for accidents on snow due to lack of adequate footwear, not as much. But an accident involving an amputation readily comes to mind.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by pbakwin »

I personally knew 2 people who died in ultramarathons, and several others who have been severely injured. One person fell off a cliff at Diagonale des Fous. He was a strong mountain person with lots of experience in the Alps. Another died in his sleep from bacterial pneumonia right after running a 48 hour track race at Across the Years. I also was personally in a situation during a race where I thought to myself "If I sprain my ankle I will die". This was Day 4 of the infamous, 1-off Tuscarora Trail 6-day race in 2003. The weather for the 40+ mile stage (which took me 8.5 hours or so) was 34 degrees and steady, hard rain all day. At higher elevations it was below freezing, sleeting, and every surface was covered with a thick coating of ice. Even with a good rain jacket I was quickly soaked through and could only run faster to stay warm. Only 8 of the 20 runners were able to complete the stage. Or maybe the other 12 were smarter. Anyway, it was certainly the most miserable day of running I ever experienced.

Everything we do is dangerous to a non-zero degree. I've also heard from people who said running ultras literally saved their lives, as they had been going down a bad road with substances &c. No doubt there are those who feel the same about mountaineering.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by supranihilest »

DArcyS wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:42 pm
supranihilest wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:09 am
justiner wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:00 am I've actually found trail runners to work pretty well for mountain stuff.
Ditto. Wear footwear that's appropriate for conditions, both your own and the mountain's. What an odd side-rant about footwear that was.
Albeit the topic is a drift, your characterization of it being a "rant" suggests you consult a dictionary before posting online.

Here's the definition of a rant to save you some time: "to speak or declaim extravagantly or violently; talk in a wild or vehement way; rave."

So, that's what you got out of my post? Get a grip on reality, dude. Thanks.

And can you now see the difference between a regular post and a rant? :wink:
:lol:

Cool rant, bro.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by DArcyS »

supranihilest wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:58 pm
DArcyS wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 12:42 pm
supranihilest wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:09 am

Ditto. Wear footwear that's appropriate for conditions, both your own and the mountain's. What an odd side-rant about footwear that was.
Albeit the topic is a drift, your characterization of it being a "rant" suggests you consult a dictionary before posting online.

Here's the definition of a rant to save you some time: "to speak or declaim extravagantly or violently; talk in a wild or vehement way; rave."

So, that's what you got out of my post? Get a grip on reality, dude. Thanks.

And can you now see the difference between a regular post and a rant? :wink:
:lol:

Cool rant, bro.
Thank you, peace.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by Tornadoman »

pbakwin wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:51 pm This was Day 4 of the infamous, 1-off Tuscarora Trail 6-day race in 2003. The weather for the 40+ mile stage (which took me 8.5 hours or so) was 34 degrees and steady, hard rain all day. At higher elevations it was below freezing, sleeting, and every surface was covered with a thick coating of ice. Even with a good rain jacket I was quickly soaked through and could only run faster to stay warm. Only 8 of the 20 runners were able to complete the stage. Or maybe the other 12 were smarter. Anyway, it was certainly the most miserable day of running I ever experienced.
An Ultra in Pennsylvania during March? Ouch! Yeah, that has a high potential for some weather problems. I read a book several years ago about people who died in and around the Mount Washington in New Hampshire. 30s and cold rain/sleet with high winds were a factor in a lot of the accidents. It is so hard to stay dry in those conditions.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by timisimaginary »

regarding boots and ankle protection, this is an old but pretty comprehensive collection of research links that don't show much if any benefit of boots over trail runners: https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedBackpa ... _the_myth/

the ankle protection offered by most modern hiking boots is largely illusory. if you can easily twist and squeeze the above-ankle portion of a pair of hiking boots, then it's not going to stop any force strong enough to twist, sprain or break an ankle. you can certainly get burlier heavy-duty boots that will offer some actual protection, but then it's a tradeoff between protection and weight. how many extra ounces or lbs are you willing to put on your feet and accept the tradeoff in speed and fatigue that results?

in any case, this is only relevant for hiking. runners aren't going to go into an ultramarathon wearing boots unless they're looking to DNF. if runners suffer more ankle injuries, it has more to do with the activity than the footwear. running puts more force and stress on the ankle than hiking, so naturally it's going to produce more ankle injuries. also, the speed increase means there's less reaction time if you land awkwardly on a rock, and the greater landing force is going to increase the likelihood of injury when that happens.

my own n=1 experiment, when i first started trail running, i rolled my ankle a few times, never bad enough to produce a significant injury but enough to scare me about the possibility. i started wearing lightweight ankle braces for some extra stability and gradually built up my ankle strength and running technique, i've since ditched the braces and now i rarely roll an ankle and when i do i'm light enough on my feet to bounce out of it before any damage occurs. that said, anyone can suffer an ankle or leg injury at any time, all it takes is one moment of inattention, one bad step, and you're on the ground. that's true whether you're hiking or running, whether you're wearing boots or trail runners, so it pays to be prepared for the possibility no matter what you're wearing or what you're doing.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by two lunches »

timisimaginary wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:07 pm regarding boots and ankle protection, this is an old but pretty comprehensive collection of research links that don't show much if any benefit of boots over trail runners: https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedBackpa ... _the_myth/
thank you, tim. i'm glad i'm not the only one who has heard enough garbage about boots "saving" ankles. HYOfH. in whatever the f you want to H in.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by timisimaginary »

stephakett wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:24 pm
timisimaginary wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:07 pm regarding boots and ankle protection, this is an old but pretty comprehensive collection of research links that don't show much if any benefit of boots over trail runners: https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedBackpa ... _the_myth/
thank you, tim. i'm glad i'm not the only one who has heard enough garbage about boots "saving" ankles. HYOfH. in whatever the f you want to H in.
unfortunately, if you do go hiking or running in trail runners and get hurt, you can count on being shoe-shamed for it. the only things boots really protect you from is post-accident criticism.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by shays_days »

Adding 1 data point for team trail runner in the summer. Boots may (I'm skeptical) give marginal ankle support but they also are heavy, annoying, get waterlogged (and heavier), and aren't usually breathable. Ankle support goes both ways and ankle support usually also comes with less ankle mobility, making your feet more inflexible and less adaptable to varying terrain. Walking across a talus field in boots sucks compared to trailrunners because every rock is at a different angle and your ankle can adapt less in boots.

They're also worse than trail runners for any scrambling you might encounter, and subjectively I think it's nicer to be able to feel a little bit of the terrain under your feet.

At the end of the day wear what you like, there are tons of people that crush in boots and good for you, but I think it's a little silly to say people don't think about how injury prone trail runners are compared to boots. I find it really unlikely that someone who sprained their ankle with trail runners on would have been fine if they wore their boots that day.

Also you can always do ankle exercise prehab. I've been doing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21rwl0oWwuY on and off since I was like 15, not specifically for hiking, but it's definitely helped.
Last edited by shays_days on Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by BillMiddlebrook »

timisimaginary wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:47 pm the only things boots really protect you from is post-accident criticism.
And water, if you have waterproof boots. :)

I use boots in early summer and switch over to trail runners when routes are dry. When I'm in "boot" season and think I'll encounter snow, I bring my ankle gaitors which are useless with trail runners.
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Re: Ultramarathon Deaths

Post by montanahiker »

shays_days wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:29 pm Adding 1 data point for team trail runner. Boots may (I'm skeptical) give marginal ankle support but they also are heavy, annoying, get waterlogged (and heavier), and aren't usually breathable. Ankle support goes both ways and ankle support usually also comes with less ankle mobility, making your feet more inflexible and less adaptable to varying terrain. Walking across a talus field in boots sucks compared to trailrunners because every rock is at a different angle and your ankle has to stay in a straight line.

They're also worse than trail runners for any scrambling you might encounter, and subjectively I think it's nicer to be able to feel a little bit of the terrain under your feet.

At the end of the day wear what you like, there are tons of people that crush in boots and good for you, but I think it's a little silly to say people don't think about how injury prone trail runners are compared to boots. I find it really unlikely that someone who sprained their ankle with trail runners on would have been fine if they wore their boots that day.
This is probably what is holding me back from switching. My feet tend to get worn out on longer hikes and feeling more of the terrain doesn't sound like it would be worth the weight savings.

What's the difference between hiking shoes and trail runners? Just more flexibility/less foot protection? If I were to leave boots is it even worth moving to hiking shoes or should I just go straight to trail runners.
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