Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

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terrysrunning
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Re: Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

Post by terrysrunning »

I'm a terrible climber. I just don't have enough experience yet with the technical bits. Very solid scrambler though. So I'm constantly following threads like this to try to figure out how I should approach Jagged (and Dallas and Teakettle), which could be this year. So, while I clearly don't have any useful technical advice, I can say that often I've noticed that great climbers are not the most daring scramblers, and I've learned to look through that lens when reading advice on these threads. The perspectives are very different. I've seen lots of people say Jagged was no problem and they didn't see what the hype was about; and lots who wouldn't have even thought of trying without a rope.
My own current plan is to bring gear in case I feel like I need it, but hope I don't. That's also because I'm usually solo. Hopefully I'll con someone into putting up with me for those, though...(anybody got a few free days later this summer??)
I will say that if the OP lacks confidence, telling him to just send it might be a bit aggressive...
But while we're on the topic, can anyone recommend some climbs/routes around here (Golden/Boulder etc) that are comparable to any of those?
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Re: Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

Post by SnowAlien »

James, you brought a 60m rope on a climb, used it, but afterwards decided you didn't actually need it and now going around telling people they don't need a rope, and all they need are the tennis shoes. Did I get that right?

Wham is rated 5.4, while Breezy is 5.5, so considering the altitude and the approach, they are definitely very much comparable. And actually, you prove my point - if you're comfortable soloing Breezy, then you don't need to bring a rope on Wham.
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Re: Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

Post by hellmanm »

DArcyS wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:29 pm You're in your mid-20s. What's the rush? Given what you worry about, perhaps taking more time to gain additional experience in the mountains would be beneficial. With more experience, you'd probably enjoy the peak more when you do get around to climbing it. Just a thought.
I've given this a thought, and it's a good point. It's not like the mountains are going anywhere. With that said, the fear factor doesn't usually ruin the experience for me. I tend to keep my cool/lock in, and feels really good to face the fear and overcome it. It's also circumstantial -- e.g. I remember being more nervous about the drive into Wetterhorn (I only got to 1 mile from the TH in my Forester) than the summit pitch. Because Jagged/Vestal are unfamiliar territory, though, I don't know how I'll respond. That's part of where the guide comes in.
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Re: Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

Post by Jon Frohlich »

jscully205 wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 9:38 pm Wow, I guess I should consider my audience is mostly hikers in this forum and very conservative decision makers. I offered what sounds like an unpopular opinion/counterpoint to a bunch of posers that point to threads of accidents that happened to reinforce said conservative decision making. Exposure is something you inure yourself to. There's probably plenty of "no fall" areas that the OP probably encountered before. What difference does it make on a different mountain? Anyway It sounds like the OP is really nervous about climbing the peaks. He's not confident in his abilities and doesn't possess the degree of skill necessary to climb them, so hiring a guide is probably the way to go.
And is his climb in any way less than yours if he hires a guide or brings a rope? If he's satisfied with it then what does it matter?

Frankly I'll be bringing a rope on Jagged because I'd like to maximize my chances of coming home to my loved ones. Could I climb it unroped? Maybe. Is it worth it to me? No.

If I was one of the 'posers' you called out I'm quite happy to take that label and climb with a rope (and a guide if I want one). So should the OP.
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Re: Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

Post by tmud »

piggybacking on the others, don't listen to the "send it", "posers" guy. I climb every weekend and I'll bring a rope anytime its 5th class. Climbing with the confidence of a rope and/or stronger partner makes the climb more enjoyable, and is just objectively smarter than free scrambling 5th class.

If you need to do these now, get a guide; if you can wait, get into climbing, get comfortable with alpine techniques then give it a try with a friend in a year or two. I did both with rope and I'd bring rope again every time.
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Re: Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

Post by 12ersRule »

The only poser in this thread is JScully205. Like most alpine peaks in Colorado, 99% of Jagged is non-technical, so to act like a big deal because he does a smattering of class 5 here and there is hilarious.

My point on posting the thread about Wyoming Bob is that even some of the great and most humble mountaineers can make a fatal mistake on a mountain like Jagged.
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Re: Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

Post by pvnisher »

I haven't done either of these routes, but for me the biggest difference in hiring a guide is the route finding.
In some places it's a moderate scrabble "on the right line". But when you get off route suddenly you're deep in it.
And you don't know if you should retreat, down climb, press on... Then the weather, altitude, thoughts of "I'm too far in to go back, it'll be shorter of I keep going forward" start to come in. That happened to me on Sneffels in a late September snowstorm, I was off route up high, kinda sucked.
Especially when there are rappels involved, or particular pitches you need to hit.

In my own case, I'm eyeing Grand Teton, and although it's well within my skill level I'm likely going to hire a guide because I don't know the area, don't have the time to learn it, and don't have local "free" guide friends to go with who do.
And I don't feel any shame about that.

If you aren't sure you can do it safely, in the allotted time, then hire a guide. You'll get a lot of experience. Maybe go back and do it on your own a week or two later. You'll have massive confidence and it'll be good for your development.
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Re: Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

Post by Wildernessjane »

Woah...that escalated fast. Everyone is a “newbie” climber at some point and many of us on here started out as hikers. Why push someone you don’t know to exceed their abilities or take unnecessary risks? You don’t know their skills/abilities or risk tolerance but the fact that they are asking should be a clue. And, in this case, why go after people who have challenged you for doing so? I feel like it dishonors the memories of those who have fallen in the mountains. For what it’s worth, I’m all of 118 lbs and somehow I managed to haul a 30m alpine rope all the way back in there to have the option to do the rappels on Jagged. Personally, I don’t understand why anyone would fret about a few extra pounds.
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Re: Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

Post by justiner »

I'm not a certified guide of an type, but if there are people who want a partner to finish up the harder Cents, maybe I can help ya out:

https://www.14ers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=60212
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Re: Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

Post by JQDivide »

When we did Jagged, there was a client/guide up there at the same time. They had a good time.

Like others have said, it you want to do it soon, get a guide if that matches your comfort and experience levels. Enjoy the day!
Or, if you can connect with a partner that has that experience and is willing to help you up that peak, go that route.
I would not have gone for Jagged if it wasn't for the experienced crew we had on that trip.

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Re: Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

Post by hellmanm »

justiner wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:07 pm I'm not a certified guide of an type, but if there are people who want a partner to finish up the harder Cents, maybe I can help ya out:

https://www.14ers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=60212
PM sent. I read your TRs from time to time and would love to learn from you.
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Re: Should I hire a guide for Jagged and/or Vestal?

Post by RobLowe »

jscully205 wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:49 am
angry wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 11:34 am
jscully205 wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 10:44 am It just seemed like a long way to haul in a rope for that. Down-climbing would be quicker.
Did you not take a rope to rappel when you did it with tsmart and nanney?
Yeah, we took a 60m half rope and used it to rappel; this is only because we had it and felt like we might as well use it. In hindsight, I would have traded off not taking a rope for faster speed of movement.
I’m with JScully. By no means is this a black and white issue, but no rope allows you to link Vestal and Jagged in one day. Rope is just too much weight for dropping down to Balsam lake and regaining the Peak 5/6 saddle into No Name. Done both peaks 2x (small sample size) but never used a rope. All about preference, comfort, experience, which varies so dramatically that these opinions are pretty unhelpful.

A guide is overboard for what jagged actually is.
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