Missing Hiker Capitol Peak 7/31

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Been_Jammin
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Re: Missing Hiker Capitol Peak 7/31

Post by Been_Jammin »

Ptglhs wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 10:16 pm We have no idea what happened. If he was found below the knife's edge he was probably on the standard route. It could have been something as simple as a rock that hundreds of other people have stepped on giving way to the forces of gravity and erosion. When people act like person X died because they made mistake A, B, or C and they themselves would never make those same mistakes they are deluding themselves into believing they are less vulnerable then they are. Sometimes people make good decisions and have bad luck. We don't, and probably never will, know what happened to this hiker. My condolences to those who loved him.
Well put.
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GeezerClimber
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Re: Missing Hiker Capitol Peak 7/31

Post by GeezerClimber »

MountainMetaphor wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 11:44 pm
GeezerClimber wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:04 pm Very sad all around. In my decades of climbing in CO, I have observed three common factors in fatalities: 1. climbing alone 2. out of state climber and 3. bad weather. Looks like Kelly may have had all three working against him.

Dave
I'd been following the news hoping for a happy outcome for this climber. My condolences to his family and to the Mountain Rescue volunteers who were injured in the field.

Please feel free to message me if this question no longer fits the tenor of discussion now that the outcome is known: As someone who climbs alone the majority of the time, what specifically is it about climbing alone, to your observation, that can lead to fatalities more frequently than climbing with a partner? At this point, the only reason I climb alone is because I don't yet have people I know and trust who want to climb increasingly challenging peaks, and I'm reluctant to join up with a group of strangers for Class 3 and 4 climbs. I feel like when I'm alone, as long as I can make truthful assessments of my energy, skill limitations, risk tolerance, etc., I have as good a chance of making solid decisions as I would if I were trying to come to a consensus with a bunch of people. But I could be wrong.
We are off topic somewhat here but this is a good place to discuss possible lessons too, so here goes: As someone else mentioned, you are less likely to go off route with a partner. Getting off route on the difficult peaks is a factor in many accidents. Even for those of us who live high, altitude reduces one's ability to think clearly. I know I can't read a topo map as well up high as I do at home. Then if you find yourself in a scary situation, thinking clearly gets even harder. The tough peaks often require significant mental energy assessing lines, routes and risk factors. My theory is that out of state climbers are more likely to feel the effects of altitude that can lead to a loss of balance and disorientation. There are also instances, though uncommon, where even an experienced climber will be having a bad day. On an easy or moderate peak, they can just tough it out but this can be dangerous on a hard peak. A partner can see what's happening and suggest they save the peak for another day. Finally, even on easier peaks, accidents happen. Ankles get turned or broken, heads get bumped after a spill and so on. Just because there is a crowd doesn't mean any will be willing to help. Most of the experienced climbers I know (including me) have had an injury serious enough to require medical attention although only one I know needed SAR. Most of these injuries actually happened on moderate climbs. Speaking of Capitol, one of my friends saved the life of his partner after he was seriously injured in a fall near K2. He was able to stabilize him and call in a copter. That said, I know people who would just rather be solo and climbed them all without incident. But the risk is higher.

Dave
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Re: Missing Hiker Capitol Peak 7/31

Post by mtree »

Sad ending indeed.
As far as laying blame or judgement on hikers above the rescuers, we don't know the details. I, for one, would probably have NO idea what folks in a chopper wanted me to do without "hearing" them. Waving arms would be very confusing. And given the climbers were on the knife edge, what CAN they do? They were already committed and on exposed terrain.

And regarding solo hiking. I do it all the time. As others mentioned, I don't have reliable or trustworthy partners to climb with so I go it alone. Sure, its a risk, but not necessarily for the reasons you think. I've been with partners in the past who influenced my decisions in the wrong direction. The dynamics are complicated and too varied for a discussion under this thread. Another time. Hope for a full and speedy recovery for those injured.
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Re: Missing Hiker Capitol Peak 7/31

Post by Jorts »

Solo hiking shares a lot of similarities to solo backcountry skiing. Sure, if something goes wrong you don’t have a partner to help you out. But your margins widen and there is no false sense of safety in numbers. The heightened sense of self-reliance and self-awareness is empowering despite it appearing foolish to those that would never dare. In many ways solo travel can make you a better partner and decision maker.
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Re: Missing Hiker Capitol Peak 7/31

Post by HikerGuy »

Jorts wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:40 am Solo hiking shares a lot of similarities to solo backcountry skiing. Sure, if something goes wrong you don’t have a partner to help you out. But your margins widen and there is no false sense of safety in numbers. The heightened sense of self-reliance and self-awareness is empowering despite it appearing foolish to those that would never dare. In many ways solo travel can make you a better partner and decision maker.
I don't get the being solo equals more dangerous argument either. ^This is my take. The advantages and disadvantages of being with others vs. being solo are a wash IMO. It is unfortunate that this young man lost his life, but being solo was probably not a factor. Condolences to his friends and family.
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Re: Missing Hiker Capitol Peak 7/31

Post by SnowAlien »

Solo hiking is nice if you kick rocks, there's nobody around, I definitely have to be more careful about that with a partner. When I did Capitol solo for my second time the other parties on the mountain were kicking rocks left and right. The one on the way out just before K2 sounded just like the rockslide SAR described in this accident. For my 3rd time last week, we made sure to give everyone a wide berth and go midweek. Btw the rock on the ridge direct route is much more solid, we took the standard ledge system on the way down and it was very loose.
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Re: Missing Hiker Capitol Peak 7/31

Post by Rollie Free »

I like to revert to 'what does the data tell you'.

What is the ratio of out of state climbers to out of state climber fatalities? Someones perception may be accurate or not.
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Re: Missing Hiker Capitol Peak 7/31

Post by Dave B »

GeezerClimber wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 8:49 am We are off topic somewhat here but this is a good place to discuss possible lessons too, so here goes: As someone else mentioned, you are less likely to go off route with a partner. Getting off route on the difficult peaks is a factor in many accidents. Even for those of us who live high, altitude reduces one's ability to think clearly. I know I can't read a topo map as well up high as I do at home. Then if you find yourself in a scary situation, thinking clearly gets even harder. The tough peaks often require significant mental energy assessing lines, routes and risk factors. My theory is that out of state climbers are more likely to feel the effects of altitude that can lead to a loss of balance and disorientation. There are also instances, though uncommon, where even an experienced climber will be having a bad day. On an easy or moderate peak, they can just tough it out but this can be dangerous on a hard peak. A partner can see what's happening and suggest they save the peak for another day. Finally, even on easier peaks, accidents happen. Ankles get turned or broken, heads get bumped after a spill and so on. Just because there is a crowd doesn't mean any will be willing to help. Most of the experienced climbers I know (including me) have had an injury serious enough to require medical attention although only one I know needed SAR. Most of these injuries actually happened on moderate climbs. Speaking of Capitol, one of my friends saved the life of his partner after he was seriously injured in a fall near K2. He was able to stabilize him and call in a copter. That said, I know people who would just rather be solo and climbed them all without incident. But the risk is higher.
I disagree that a partner leads to more conservative decision making. The Loveland Pass ski accident will forever stand as evidence that there is not always strength and good decision making in numbers.

So, I'm with Jorts and hikerguy about being solo not being inherently dangerous and instead being empowering. I'm 10x more conservative in decision making when solo. That doesn't make me immune to happenstance, i.e. rocks move, holds break, feet slip, but neither does having a partner. They'll just facilitate a rescue if something bad does happen.
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Re: Missing Hiker Capitol Peak 7/31

Post by climbingcue »

Dave B wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:28 am I disagree that a partner leads to more conservative decision making. The Loveland Pass ski accident will forever stand as evidence that there is not always strength and good decision making in numbers.

So, I'm with Jorts and hikerguy about being solo not being inherently dangerous and instead being empowering. I'm 10x more conservative in decision making when solo. That doesn't make me immune to happenstance, i.e. rocks move, holds break, feet slip, but neither does having a partner. They'll just facilitate a rescue if something bad does happen.
I think the key here is GOOD partner, and the skills you gain by going solo are extremely important.
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Re: Missing Hiker Capitol Peak 7/31

Post by CarpeDM »

“In addition to the area around Capitol Peak being extremely dangerous based on its steep terrain and composition of loose, crumbling rock, recent monsoon weather patterns have created even more instability and dangerous conditions on the mountain . . . terrain that is sometimes stable in dry conditions can change dramatically and become unstable after heavy rains.

I’d like to emphasize these words from the press release that IntrepidXJ posted. We just passed the 11 year anniversary of an accident that I was involved in on the El Diente – Wilson traverse in which there were significant injuries and one death. At the time, I stated my belief that there were no real lessons to be learned; it was just a freak accident. That was wrong. There had been significant rain in the days preceding our trip which likely contributed to the rockfall that caused our accident.

Be careful out there.

Condolences to McDermott’s friends and family, and I hope all SAR members recover quickly and fully.
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Re: Missing Hiker Capitol Peak 7/31

Post by CORed »

HikerGuy wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:06 am
Jorts wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:40 am Solo hiking shares a lot of similarities to solo backcountry skiing. Sure, if something goes wrong you don’t have a partner to help you out. But your margins widen and there is no false sense of safety in numbers. The heightened sense of self-reliance and self-awareness is empowering despite it appearing foolish to those that would never dare. In many ways solo travel can make you a better partner and decision maker.
I don't get the being solo equals more dangerous argument either. ^This is my take. The advantages and disadvantages of being with others vs. being solo are a wash IMO. It is unfortunate that this young man lost his life, but being solo was probably not a factor. Condolences to his friends and family.
Based on the fairly limited information I've read so far, it seems that he fell off the knife edge, and most likely the fall killed him. If that's the case, a hiking partner would not have saved him.
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Re: Missing Hiker Capitol Peak 7/31

Post by CORed »

Rollie Free wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 10:19 am I like to revert to 'what does the data tell you'.

What is the ratio of out of state climbers to out of state climber fatalities? Someones perception may be accurate or not.
Besides which, living out of state does not necessarily mean inexperienced or not acclimated to altitude, nor does living in Colorado necessarily mean the opposite.
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