Skiing a Peak: What it takes

[12ersRule]

It sounds to me like 14ers.com needs a 2nd ski icon as 'ski descent' has many more implications than I skied on a 14er.

The checkbox means vastly different things to the hard core big mountain skier vs the hiker/outdoor enthusiast who just wants to say, I skied a couloir on this peak.

The skiing checkbox is the only one of the checkboxes that is out of one's control. 3000ft is clear-cut as is the snowflake. You know that if you start at X elevation on Y day, you are going to get to check your checkbox if you summit....yay! You can't do that with the current skiing checkbox, you need the blessings of the Snow Gods.

[bergsteigen]

Is the snowflake on this site’s checklist clear cut? Every single year we argue when “winter” is, even though most meteorologists announce -hey we’re in calendar winter now- during their newscasts. (Oh wait, does anyone even watch those anymore. Do apps announce this? My apps I use don’t) We’ve had huge arguments about purple snowflakes in the past. Will this be the chairlift icon debate? Anytime someone hikes on snow, they click on the snowflake button (see above post by Angry). Last time I checked, there’s still no purple snowflake for “hey I hiked on snow, and it was so hard, but it wasn’t during calendar winter, but I still want my damn snowflake sticker”.

We seem to be living in a post-modern world where we make up all the rules as we go along, and change them to suit our needs at anytime. Yup, sounds like Lord of the Flies around here. Haha.

[Marmot96]

We seem to be living in a post-modern world where we make up all the rules as we go along, and change them to suit our needs at anytime. Yup, sounds like Lord of the Flies around here. Haha.

You seem very passionate about this subject but I assure you that all of the casual skiers who ski a handful of 14ers (not going for the whole list) don't care about the definition that you or anyone else has defined. They aren't competing with you! Just let them enjoy the mountain in their own way. If someone skis a couloir on a peak but isn't able to ski from the summit, how does that hurt you?

Honestly this whole thread is the perfect representation of how this community acts like such elitist snobs. 99% of people enjoying the 14ers are doing it casually and seldomly and you can't force your ideology and practices on them.

[bergsteigen]

We seem to be living in a post-modern world where we make up all the rules as we go along, and change them to suit our needs at anytime. Yup, sounds like Lord of the Flies around here. Haha.

You seem very passionate about this subject but I assure you that all of the casual skiers who ski a handful of 14ers (not going for the whole list) don't care about the definition that you or anyone else has defined. They aren't competing with you! Just let them enjoy the mountain in their own way. If someone skis a couloir on a peak but isn't able to ski from the summit, how does that hurt you?

Honestly this whole thread is the perfect representation of how this community acts like such elitist snobs. 99% of people enjoying the 14ers are doing it casually and seldomly and you can't force your ideology and practices on them.

Let me repeat a story I told earlier: One of my ski partners has splitboarded ON all the 14ers, but he has not done it from the summit in all cases. His objective was to merely ride on all of them. He didn’t put skier ikons next to the peaks. It was his goal, and he did it his way, but he didn’t claim anything he didn’t do according to the standards.

This guy is a badass snowboarder, he helped save my life on Maroon. It wasn’t that he couldn’t ski from the summits of all the peaks, it was because he didn’t really care. He had tons of fun (minus Capitol).

What’s the difference? He didn’t click the bloody icon labeled “ski descent”.

Same snowflake debate, different icon.

[Aphelion]

You seem very passionate about this subject but I assure you that all of the casual skiers who ski a handful of 14ers (not going for the whole list) don't care about the definition that you or anyone else has defined. They aren't competing with you! Just let them enjoy the mountain in their own way. If someone skis a couloir on a peak but isn't able to ski from the summit, how does that hurt you?

Honestly this whole thread is the perfect representation of how this community acts like such elitist snobs. 99% of people enjoying the 14ers are doing it casually and seldomly and you can't force your ideology and practices on them.

It's not about what's being done, it's about how it's talked about, and defending the lower standard with "nobody cares, because integrity is just a tool for elitist gatekeepers" isn't an impressive argument. If you walk half-way up a mountain and then turn around, there's nothing wrong with that. As you say, it's not a competition. But you can't say that you 'summitted' without expecting some pushback from people who believe that you actually need to get to the top to make that claim.

[AlexeyD]

Well...being curious, I went to the "checklist" page here to see what, if any, criteria this website has for that particular checkbox. Sure enough, it turns out that when you hover over the skier icon, the pop-up says "ski descent off the summit". Seems like that pretty much settles it. Bummer, it means I have to uncheck Torreys from my descents list as I've only skied it via Tuning Fork, which of course does not start off the true summit. (Honestly I also assumed it meant more like "skiing on a peak"). But I can't seem to figure out how to edit the ski field alone

[bergsteigen]

Sometimes a sidestep down to the good ski is possible, but it’s not really worth it and quick downclimb is less of a pain in the ass. As I recall Davenport skied Wetterhorn from the base of the little ledges. Besides if you don’t get it in good conditions it’s an excuse with the significant other to go back another year. I guess, I’m not sure getting all wound up about it is really worth anyone’s times. Maybe a hand motion and an eye roll. Might as well get made about people being shitty skiers “skiing the 14ers”. I’m about the same age as Otina, so hopefully my opinion is worthwhile.

Finally read the Snowmass TR, and get the previous comments and pm’s I received. Long day trip! Guessing the “quick down climb” is why we haven’t heard from Bean? (Or is he skiing, like I will be soon) He seemed pretty opinionated about the D scale, which I at least see some use in. I skied Snowmass west face, so I had continuous snow off the top. I didn’t have time to even look for the east face entrance, since the snow was at prime corn level. I never wanted to deal with the logjam.

I agree, sometimes a quick down climb is much easier. But it’s not the same thing as a few hundred feet or more. Wetterhorn is a listed exception. I skied the summit to the class 3 pitch, and then resumed below.

[12ersRule]

Same snowflake debate, different icon.

Otina, I just want you to be happy! You're in for a lifetime of disappointment if you think that people are going to use the Ski Descent checkbox properly.

Snowflakes have 1 and only 1 rule - it signifies a summit in a trip within calendar winter. It's not complex. And yet, like you said, we have debates about that.

Ski Descents are WAY more complicated than a simple date/time as you cited in your original post....from that post:

14er Ski Ethics (Rules) by Lou Dawson:

For his project (and for subsequent projects) Dawson defines a ski descent of a fourteener as skiing "the best (most often the longest) continuous descent available on an average snow year, almost always from the exact summit, with the exception being the few fourteeners (such as Wetterhorn and El Diente) that have rocky summit blocks or boulder caps that were never known to be in skiable condition prior to the project. "
"Since you're skiing natural snow, some descents might have gaps where you remove your skis and move a few feet across rock or tundra. Again, if you're up there on an average snow year with decent coverage, such maneuvers are legit so long as they are not excessive. But, and this is the big BUT, if I'm on a peak with bad coverage because it's too early in the year or a drought, and I have to connect snow patches that would otherwise touch each other, then I don't count it as a descent of the peak. Instead, I go back again and again 'till I get it right. To me this is a critical part of my standards, because doing otherwise would allow me a sort of 'post modern' style of ski mountaineering wherein I could claim a descent of a peak even if I skied a few hundred feet of snow on the thing in the middle of summer. I don't think people would buy that, and it just wouldn't feel good."

The chances of people using the Ski Descent icon in the correct way is slim, none, and less than none.

[Scary_Canary]

Last time I checked, there’s still no purple snowflake for “hey I hiked on snow, and it was so hard, but it wasn’t during calendar winter, but I still want my damn snowflake sticker”.

If and when Bill does get around to the purple snowflake icon, why not add in a purple skiier icon too. Makes everyone happy. All can have little icons next to their checkmarks.
We do live in a society where everyone is winners, and everyone needs to feel special.

[lodgling]

Otina, I just want you to be happy! You're in for a lifetime of disappointment if you think that people are going to use the Ski Descent checkbox properly.

There you go. I would modify that to "if you think that people are going to use the Ski Descent checkbox the way you think it should be used."

[RyGuy]

I’m not going to let a whiny hikeneer dictate skier ethics, that’s for the ski community to decide. But the winter/frozen 14er peeps can chime in with how they expect their rules to be followed - cause they do!

Why not start with a PM?

The rules are set, so follow em if you want to be considered a ski finisher or frozen finisher. If you're just doing your own thing, then it's probably best not to check the ski or snowflake icon and instead add in the memo section whatever you want about your "ski descent or winter snowflake". There are a lot of users on here that are checking off both 14er and 13ers with a snowflake even though they hiked them after calendar winter ended. Some even last week. Oh and I did PM someone and said hey, great job on XX peak but we are in spring in case you didn't know. They responded calling me a bitch, yay community!

Yeah, I always love getting accused of "pooping" all over someone's accomplishments or being an elitist when I've pointed out the difference between calendar winter vs fall and spring.
Some people hike a peak, walk across a snowfield or they have some snow flurries happen while they are on the peak and think it's a "winter ascent"...

But occasionally I see folks who just don't know, accept the constructive criticism, then take the newfound knowledge to heart and continue on.

[bergsteigen]

Same snowflake debate, different icon.

Otina, I just want you to be happy! You're in for a lifetime of disappointment if you think that people are going to use the Ski Descent checkbox properly.

Snowflakes have 1 and only 1 rule - it signifies a summit in a trip within calendar winter. It's not complex. And yet, like you said, we have debates about that.

The chances of people using the Ski Descent icon in the correct way is slim, none, and less than none.

I figured it would be a hard sell at this point. This will be my only thread trying to come to a consensus, considering many of the ski finishers are off skiing other things and don’t post much anymore. I’ll be happy when it snows more! Please Ullr! Snow fixes everything.