Incident at Longs Peak Today (9/17/2022)

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TomPierce
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Re: Incident at Longs Peak Today (9/17/2022)

Post by TomPierce »

martintravis wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:28 am
TomPierce wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:18 am
climbingcue wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:17 am

The 1st time I did the Keyhole I also turned to soon and got to high on the return route and was way above the bullseye. I had good weather and I still made the mistake, it is a very easy mistake to make. It all looks the same in that area.
Don't they have a sign warning climbers not to descend there? Not maligning the deceased, but I distinctly recall there being a sign at the False Keyhole warning climbers of the problem. I haven't been up there in years, however, maybe it was taken down?

-Tom
How would these two people you quoted or the deceased have seen a sign not to descend from the false keyhole if they were attempting to ascend from the ledges to the false keyhole, not vice versa? I just don't understand how a sign there would be directly relevant to any of those 3 situations. None of them actually reached the false keyhole, by the information provided.
I was responding to the prior posts by Justiner and Curve, and I assumed climbingcue as well. Fwiw, as I recall the sign was positioned so it could be seen when coming up to it or before going down, right at the lip. But maybe my memory is faulty and for sure if visibility was limited it'd be hard to see from a distance. I've spent some time there in the winter and the Keyhole area is for sure not a good place to deal with inclement weather. Just curious about the sign.
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Re: Incident at Longs Peak Today (9/17/2022)

Post by martintravis »

Editede from.
Last edited by martintravis on Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Incident at Longs Peak Today (9/17/2022)

Post by dan0rama »

martintravis wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:55 am I understand you were replying to them. They both ascended toward the false keyhole, wouldn't have seen that sign. Nor would the deceased. And that's assuming it is still there at all. I respect you a lot Tom, but I feel like this is the way these threads go from respectful analysis to wild, pointless conjecture. A discussion of whether there may or may not still be a sign on a spot the victim likely never set foot on warning of going back the opposite direction he would have come from.
dude stop policing what other people say. quit this self-righteous bs. you are free to exit the thread permanently and allow others to continue the conversation. we can go on without your judgement. thanks.
TomPierce
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Re: Incident at Longs Peak Today (9/17/2022)

Post by TomPierce »

martintravis wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:55 am
TomPierce wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:33 am
martintravis wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:28 am

How would these two people you quoted or the deceased have seen a sign not to descend from the false keyhole if they were attempting to ascend from the ledges to the false keyhole, not vice versa? I just don't understand how a sign there would be directly relevant to any of those 3 situations. None of them actually reached the false keyhole, by the information provided.
I was responding to the prior posts by Justiner and Curve, and I assumed climbingcue as well. Fwiw, as I recall the sign was positioned so it could be seen when coming up to it or before going down, right at the lip. But maybe my memory is faulty and for sure if visibility was limited it'd be hard to see from a distance. I've spent some time there in the winter and the Keyhole area is for sure not a good place to deal with inclement weather. Just curious about the sign.
I understand you were replying to them. They both ascended toward the false keyhole, wouldn't have seen that sign. Nor would the deceased. And that's assuming it is still there at all. I respect you a lot Tom, but I feel like this is the way these threads go from respectful analysis to wild, pointless conjecture. A discussion of whether there may or may not still be a sign on a spot the victim likely never set foot on warning of going back the opposite direction he would have come from.
Geez, OK. The prior posts jogged my memory about that sign, I was just curious, asked a question. I'm done with this topic, unsubscribed.

-Tom
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Re: Incident at Longs Peak Today (9/17/2022)

Post by justiner »

"How does one miss the false keyhole sign?" is actually a pretty good question. Regardless of this incident, I know that my first time up, I certainly did miss it, as I had gone up the Loft, then down Keyhole, so I didn't know there was a sign. That's not impossible to do going up either - especially if you don't know there is a sign, or that there even is a false keyhole.

So, if the weather is turning, it's getting dark, you're tired, you're alone, you don't know the route: it's easy to be in a less than optimal state of mind to make good decisions. The Ledges are also the most confusing part of that route. From the Trough, you ascend up, then have to again drop down, before a portion you gain/loose no elevation until you hit the Keyhole. As noted, if you're ascending up from the Trough, following the bullseyes, it's easy to miss the next one, if you don't look down. I also know that when I've been in similar circumstances, I'm greatly anticipating the Keyhole, so when I see something that sorta looks like the Keyhole, I zero in my focus on that landmark and notice nothing else.

There's also an alternative ledge system above "THE Ledges" that one can take that starts around where the NW Gully route starts, that allows you to travel higher up from the regular route and closer to the West Wall. It'll dump you a little higher up the Trough, near where that pyramidal slab is (if memory serves. The reason you dip down so low on the ledges portion is to get around a tower and I forget where exactly that tower is typin gthis). It's not so straightfoward to get to from the Trough, but pretty easy from the other side - just don't descend down to the start of the Trough following the bullseyes. But, I could see that from the Trough, if someone is avoiding the looser terrain on the south side of the couloir, they'd be on the slabby parts, and maybe that just kept going a little too much to the north.

But yes: all the above can be taken as just contributing to our shared conjecture. I know the Keyhole Route seems straightforward - especially with the bullseyes, a conga line of people, and multiple signs found throughout, but out of condition, one who is unfamiliar with the route will find themselves in very difficult circumstances. This is probably why the Park service marks the conditions as, "Technical" the minute the snow starts to fall.
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Re: Incident at Longs Peak Today (9/17/2022)

Post by WolfPeak22 »

TomPierce wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 8:49 am
martintravis wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:55 am
TomPierce wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 7:33 am

I was responding to the prior posts by Justiner and Curve, and I assumed climbingcue as well. Fwiw, as I recall the sign was positioned so it could be seen when coming up to it or before going down, right at the lip. But maybe my memory is faulty and for sure if visibility was limited it'd be hard to see from a distance. I've spent some time there in the winter and the Keyhole area is for sure not a good place to deal with inclement weather. Just curious about the sign.
I understand you were replying to them. They both ascended toward the false keyhole, wouldn't have seen that sign. Nor would the deceased. And that's assuming it is still there at all. I respect you a lot Tom, but I feel like this is the way these threads go from respectful analysis to wild, pointless conjecture. A discussion of whether there may or may not still be a sign on a spot the victim likely never set foot on warning of going back the opposite direction he would have come from.
Geez, OK. The prior posts jogged my memory about that sign, I was just curious, asked a question. I'm done with this topic, unsubscribed.

-Tom
Completely reasonable question. Don't know how this devolved into argument.
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Re: Incident at Longs Peak Today (9/17/2022)

Post by Curve »

There was zero signage or trace of signage at the False Keyhole as of mid July 2022. But I don't see that being relevant to this particular situation.

Regardless, horrible situation and result. May his soul rest in peace.
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Re: Incident at Longs Peak Today (9/17/2022)

Post by Broadmoor5 »

Sign is still there. It has an arrow pointing down and to the left when facing and says Keyhole. I just saw it last month and have a picture of it. I was heading too high and saw the sign and looked below for bullseyes so it’s definitely still helpful I suppose moreso if you know of the false keyhole and all of the accidents that have happened there.
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Re: Incident at Longs Peak Today (9/17/2022)

Post by onebyone »

justiner wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:46 am "How does one miss the false keyhole sign?" is actually a pretty good question. Regardless of this incident, I know that my first time up, I certainly did miss it, as I had gone up the Loft, then down Keyhole, so I didn't know there was a sign. That's not impossible to do going up either - especially if you don't know there is a sign, or that there even is a false keyhole.

So, if the weather is turning, it's getting dark, you're tired, you're alone, you don't know the route: it's easy to be in a less than optimal state of mind to make good decisions. The Ledges are also the most confusing part of that route. From the Trough, you ascend up, then have to again drop down, before a portion you gain/loose no elevation until you hit the Keyhole. As noted, if you're ascending up from the Trough, following the bullseyes, it's easy to miss the next one, if you don't look down. I also know that when I've been in similar circumstances, I'm greatly anticipating the Keyhole, so when I see something that sorta looks like the Keyhole, I zero in my focus on that landmark and notice nothing else.

There's also an alternative ledge system above "THE Ledges" that one can take that starts around where the NW Gully route starts, that allows you to travel higher up from the regular route and closer to the West Wall. It'll dump you a little higher up the Trough, near where that pyramidal slab is (if memory serves. The reason you dip down so low on the ledges portion is to get around a tower and I forget where exactly that tower is typin gthis). It's not so straightfoward to get to from the Trough, but pretty easy from the other side - just don't descend down to the start of the Trough following the bullseyes. But, I could see that from the Trough, if someone is avoiding the looser terrain on the south side of the couloir, they'd be on the slabby parts, and maybe that just kept going a little too much to the north.

But yes: all the above can be taken as just contributing to our shared conjecture. I know the Keyhole Route seems straightforward - especially with the bullseyes, a conga line of people, and multiple signs found throughout, but out of condition, one who is unfamiliar with the route will find themselves in very difficult circumstances. This is probably why the Park service marks the conditions as, "Technical" the minute the snow starts to fall.
I've always felt that if Longs wasn't so busy, we would be hearing about a lot more "incidents." There are enough people who know the route and there is a lot of people just cueing off those people. Just my observation. And you still see people going the wrong way and then having to correct. Safety in a crowd I guess. There are a lot of unprepared people on that mountain imo. If you are up there late with deteriorating weather, things can go bad real quick.
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