Capitol's Death Route

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TallGrass
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Re: Capitol's Death Route

Post by TallGrass »

justiner wrote:I remember this story:
http://www.postindependent.com/sports/o ... s-earlier/
From their vantage point, it appeared as if the snow followed a straight path down to the basin below. What they didn't know was that what looked like a clear path to the bottom was actually a line-of-sight illusion that hid a large field of exposed boulders.
...
The three eyed the couloir and prepared themselves for the descent. John Heckert, being a bold and adventurous man, volunteered to go first. He sat down to slide and picked up tremendous speed almost instantly. His attempt to self-arrest proved futile as he plummeted down the chasm, hurtling toward the rocky teeth protruding from the snowcover below. He crashed into the stone at a high speed and was killed instantly.
I can't tell what couloir they were talking about - I can't think of anything it could be except the Wandering Dutchman ... From below, Wandering Dutchman looks pretty gnarly
I can rule out Wandering Dutchman Couloir as it does not fit the story.
If you skip to "TV for the night" on my Capitol TR where I go via WDC (reloaded the pics and nixed the PB hotlinks), you can see it doesn't match the description. Take the following excerpts from the story:
John Heckert was part of a three-person team that had hiked up toward Capitol Peak from their basecamp at Snowmass Lake. They had already reached the top of Snowmass Peak two days before, and the group's goal was to summit each Fourteener in the area. The team, consisting of Heckert, who lived in Wilmington, Del., Richard Slusser of Aurora, Colo., and Eileen Ginter of Denver, continued on and, shortly after reaching the top of Capitol, decided to attempt a glissade down a couloir toward Pierre Basin in hopes of saving time and returning to camp before dark.
"In a matter of seconds he was swept out of sight where he struck the rock. ... "The snowfield here was quite steep, possibly at an angle of 30 degrees or so, and it was actually no more steep than the snowfield below Snowmass Peak at the beginning that we had glissaded only two days before," Slusser said.
When asked if he would've attempted a glissade down the couloir, his mood lifted, an impish smile forming. "I know it wouldn't have happened to me because I couldn't get across the knife's edge,"
* It is far from the summit, past K2, not "shortly after," and no shortcut.
* WDC has a lot of run (see TR pics). Angle of 30 degrees? The start of WDC from the top would be steeper then mellow, but it read like theirs went from mellow to steep and into sizable boulders.
* The Knife Edge isn't an obstacle to reach it.

If you go to http://www.summitpost.org/capitol-peak/816421/c-816641 and click on the image of Capitol from Daly for a larger version, you can see the whole standard route from the lake and WDC notch on the left (atop a snowfield, somewhat camouflaged if you don't zoom in). You can also see WDC from hills above El Jebel, CO.

WDC formed due to this weakness running through the rock. It looks gnarly from afar, but going up wasn't bad. I found getting from the saddle onto the ridge trickier, and the photos show why. :mrgreen:
Image

Another look at WDC:
Image
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tjmartn1
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Re: Capitol's Death Route

Post by tjmartn1 »

rob runkle wrote:
pmeadco wrote: Speaking of this thread, as far as I an see it has boiled down to two basic viewpoints:

1) Accidents happen. If you were not prepared, or have back luck, then you may die. That is what you accept when you enter the wilderness. It isn't worth cluttering up or otherwise defiling the mountains with signs or other guidance. Educating hikers before they hit the trail is all that needs to be done.
More like...

1) Accidents can happen. You should be properly prepared and have the appropriate skills for, and knowledge about the route you choose to hike. No amount of signage can guarantee your safety. Best placement of signage is not simple, and maintenance of signage by the forest service staff can be difficult (Per the forest service management). Educating yourself before hitting the trail is highly recommended. Fixed cables, rebar handholds, painted bulleyes and escalators may not be available for you on route.
Rob, besides it making your little hobby more badass to your buddies, is there a really compelling argument you have against signs that may keep someone's son or daughter alive other than some sort of purity bulls**t about the "rising and to the level of the route"? Does it make you feel like you're Maurice Herzog if you can do the standard route of Capital after reading 40 trip reports, without a little sign that tells the perhaps less intelligent but equally adventureous of us (who would have to have the ability to cross the knife edge once even the see it) not to go a certain way back that looks appealing enough to be killing people regularly?

Besides wilderness ethics against signage and your purist masturbatory fantasies about being a hard man doing first ascents on a mountain frontier, why not save a life or two potentially with a tiny little sign somewhere near one gully of 1000?

Because you did the research and know you don't go down that direction, the next desperate guy who the weather turns on and who is in over his head and thinks he sees maybe a safer quicker way down to camp has to end up on top of a pile of bodies, so that you can feel better about how You were worthy of the route, and didn't have to have any signs to know which way to get back across he knife edge on a bluebird day?
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Wentzl
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Re: Capitol's Death Route

Post by Wentzl »

Marmot96 wrote:I nominate that we close this thread, at least until next year, as it is very unlikely that a sign will be placed for a while due to the snow.
+1

what a bunch of blowhards who have absolutely nothing to say. Nominate for the hall of fame, suck division.
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medic1369
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Re: Capitol's Death Route

Post by medic1369 »

Second.
● Experience comes from f*cking up and somehow managing not to die.

● Not everyone gleans the lessons of experience.
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Re: Capitol's Death Route

Post by justiner »

Tallgrass, I know the area, I descended Wandering Dutchman just a few weeks ago, . If not that couloir, I do not know anything else that fits that description - ~30 degree gully down to Pierre Lakes, near Capitol. The description is actually that you do not need to cross the knife edge to access it, as Clark Heckert, the dude getting interviewed didn't, but he still went down the same gully, kicking steps instead of glissading, to see if his Brother was alive.

The story doesn't really explain the route they took from Snowmass Lake to Capitol though, except it took them two days, and that they wanted to go into Pierre Lakes Basin as a shortcut back to camp.
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Re: Capitol's Death Route

Post by JaredJohnson »

justiner wrote:The description is actually that you do not need to cross the knife edge to access it, as Clark Heckert, the dude getting interviewed didn't, but he still went down the same gully, kicking steps instead of glissading, to see if his Brother was alive.
Take another look... It appears Clark was 12 at the time and not part of the original party. I think he's saying that the gully was between the knife edge and the summit, so if he had been there, being unable to cross the knife edge on the way up, he wouldn't have been in a position to decide whether to descend that gully
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Re: Capitol's Death Route

Post by d_baker »

Somewhere in this thread, the Deadly Bells sign was mentioned. I did a tourist walk near there the other evening, and I didn't see the signs anymore. When did they come down? Or was I looking in the wrong place?
Missing Deadly Bells sign.jpg
Missing Deadly Bells sign.jpg (476.22 KiB) Viewed 3679 times
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rob runkle
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Re: Capitol's Death Route

Post by rob runkle »

tjmartn1 wrote: Rob, besides it making your little hobby more badass to your buddies, is there a really compelling argument you have against signs that may keep someone's son or daughter alive other than some sort of purity bulls**t about the "rising and to the level of the route"? Does it make you feel like you're Maurice Herzog if you can do the standard route of Capital after reading 40 trip reports, without a little sign that tells the perhaps less intelligent but equally adventureous of us (who would have to have the ability to cross the knife edge once even the see it) not to go a certain way back that looks appealing enough to be killing people regularly?
Yeah. Because - as already mention multiple times in this thread already - it is not so simple to just place a sign on a route. Especially in a situation exactly like this one.
1) Where to place the sign exactly, so that it does the intended function? First thing is to determine exactly what the dead people were thinking and the route mistake that they did.
2) How to place it so that the next rock fall doesn't take it down - which is highly likely in areas where route is steep and loose (the Elks)?
3) How to place it so that people are not accidentally pulled off route to go looking at the sign, then find themselves on loose terrain that they wish they were not on?
4) Where to place it so that points #2 and #3 together do not cause issues - route changes due to rock slides, making going near the sign more dangerous than when the sign was initially placed.
5) In reference to #4 and #2, how is the forest service supposed to maintain the sign? This was noted multiple times in the thread by the manager of the forest service.

Cahoonas has absolutely nothing to do with this position. Common sense and actually dealing with the ROOT CAUSE of the issue does. And, people who have never even been on the route have the least information and knowledge about this situation. But, somehow those people seem to be the ones that have the most input about how and where to place the sign.
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Re: Capitol's Death Route

Post by jkasmann »

justiner wrote: Haha! There is a strong feeling that one shouldn't need to train to summit 14ers - that summiting 14ers is training enough. Again, I think the Westword article really shines a light on that point of view, because that's exactly what the dude said: "I'm qualified! Look at x many mountains I've done in y years!" And it was like, one mountain a month. I was scratching my head on that one. I really think it was a very strange idea publish the tips for a safer climb by someone who got rescued - blind leading the blind as far as I'm concerned.
From the article: Also key "is keeping your head, just like I did on Capitol. I got into a precarious situation, but I also kept my head together — and I got out of it."

Lol. Mind blowing to me that the dude goes up solo, gets lost and rescued, and his conclusion is that he shoulda brought the Spot.
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Re: Capitol's Death Route

Post by RockiesAdrian »

rob runkle wrote:For Capitol, I met up with someone from 14erworld (previous site, from the old old days, for the youngsters on this site). We didn't know each other, but I remember Jared quizzing me the night we arrived at camp, and we were filtering water together. My response for my mountain resume was something like this, "I've done Longs Peak, and 20+ 14ers, and I gym climb every week for the last 2 years." Jared surely had concerns. On top of that, I had not brought an ice axe or a helmet. 8-[ Needless to say, from a technical skills perspective, I was well within my comfort zone on Capitol. Jared later admitted his initial concerns, but followed with a compliment on how his concerns were quickly alleviated during our climb.

I actually feel that I was in a better place on Capitol, than I was on Longs Peak, 2 years prior. Similar to what you mentioned, I was pretty comfortable at around 5.10 in the gym. I knew what the following things were, and could execute them in my sleep: mantle, slab climb, fist jamb, heel hook, etc, etc, etc.. I truly believe that this made all the difference on Capitol, and honestly every semi-technical climb I have done since. When some of these climbing skills becomes second nature, you elevate your safety factor well beyond most anything that you might run into on class 4. And, if you are to find yourself off route, into some mild class 5, it isn't a big issue. Plus, with a high level of comfort, you are less sensitive to exposure, because you have so many options available.

It is very rare that a person can get this from incrementally harder and harder 14er hiking - as you already mentioned. I have run into a few people in my life who are just natural "tree climbers." Out of all the people that I've introduced to the mountains, maybe 1 in 10 people are naturally gifted like that.

So, my recommendation for anyone who wants to step up to 4 and 4+, is hit the climbing gym, and get yourself up to say a 5.9 level comfortably. For most people that is months, maybe a year of solid climbing. At that point, something like class 4 should be pretty easy for you, and then it will be FUN!
You did Capitol without a helmet? ](*,) I don't think I would've consented to climb with someone in my group that didn't have one. Not on any of the Elks, really, except Castle/Conundrum.

I think this focus on climbing in the gym is a bit overblown. I have gone to a climbing gym one time since I started hiking 14ers, and it did not help me better prepare for the terrain. I probably have done some 5.? stuff on some of these mountains, but I certainly couldn't tell you if it was 5.9 or 5.1. I don't even know how the ratings work.

I had fun on Class 4 from really early on, and I'm not one of these "gifted" tree climbers you talk about. If you know you can climb 5.10, then surely you won't be scared off by some Class 4 climbing. But that doesn't mean Average Joe has to "train for a year" just to be ready for it either. Class 4 can be fun for just about anyone who is young and fit (being tall helps).

On the 14er standard routes, you should be fine if you focus on 3 Points of Contact at all times. Know how to test your holds before putting your weight on them (down not out). Hike in a group and don't be too proud to admit when you're off route.
In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
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Dave B
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Re: Capitol's Death Route

Post by Dave B »

RockiesAdrian wrote: I have gone to a climbing gym one time since I started hiking 14ers, and it did not help me better prepare for the terrain.
It's not a gastric bypass - more than a single visit is needed to realize a benefit.
Make wilderness less accessible.
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LURE
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Re: Capitol's Death Route

Post by LURE »

JaredJohnson wrote:
justiner wrote:The description is actually that you do not need to cross the knife edge to access it, as Clark Heckert, the dude getting interviewed didn't, but he still went down the same gully, kicking steps instead of glissading, to see if his Brother was alive.
Take another look... It appears Clark was 12 at the time and not part of the original party. I think he's saying that the gully was between the knife edge and the summit, so if he had been there, being unable to cross the knife edge on the way up, he wouldn't have been in a position to decide whether to descend that gully
I agree.
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