Near Misses

[TallGrass]

OK so I am hearing a lot of people talk about rockfall. One of these days I plan to climb the Hourglass (doesn't sound like there is any other way up Little Bear). What is the correct procedure when you see or hear rockfall above you?

I'd give the NW a go up LB. It stays at class 2/3 until just below the ridge if you zigzag the path of least resistance, then scramble onto the LB-Blanca ridge for a brief climb up. Then you can descend the HG (recommend taking a harness, rap device, rap gloves, and know how to use them) inspecting and knowing who is or isn't up there from the top down.

If you see or hear rockfall, anyone should yell "ROCK!" to partners and those below. The bigger or faster it is, the louder and more times you should see it. A small golf ball size that's just bouncing down without gaining speed because stuff keeps breaking its fall, "Rock!" Anything that has the Mass or Acceleration (ma=F, David took out Goliath with one stone), "ROCK!!" And if it's big enough to breaking into fragments and or dislodge other rocks into a stone shower, "ROCK!! ROOOCK!! ROOOCK!!!"

To look or not look is a judgement call because if you can spot it might be able to get out of the way, or alert someone it's making a beeline for. Find an overhang or little vertical wall to crouch against to increase the chance it flies overhead. Go turtle and grab rock holds with both hands, preferably by your chest so your hands and arms are not exposed, just your helmet and pack. I've heard stuff I looked up and watch come all the way down as it passed me or stopped short, and other times where I heard "ROCK" being screamed with such urgency (usually with rock sounds) that I just immediately ducked down.

On that note, it's also good to wear eye protection rated ANSI Z87.1, such as shaded safety glasses. Not only do they protect from rock bits, but also branches that flick back in your face as you partner passes them.

The most dangerous IMHO are the rocks that bounce out away from the slope letting them silently gain terminal velocity and or shatter into frags when next they make ground fall. You won't forget if one of those whizzes past you.

[jmanner]

Someone mentioned rockfall and goats, so I'll do a couple. Doing North Maroon, with another 14ers member, a several summers back and on descent a family of goats followed us from the second to the first gully. On the transition out of the first gully one of the goats kicked a microwave sized rock down on my buddy and almost smacked him in the face, luckily it bounced out into the void. He raised his hand, but there was no way he was going to deflect that sucker.

Wasn't my close miss, but coming down the couloir on Sneffles I saw a 50 something gentlemen kick a beachball sized talus hunk at his climbing partner, it was aiming right at her, luckily it bounced around her at the last second. I was sure I was about to see this women pulverized.

Final one, doing Capitol one spring(where I randomly meet DannyG) and when we hit K2, it was pretty snowed in. Ignoring the great advice we'd gotten from Danny we attempted to traverse across the snowfields and then up a loose-rib to a snowfield that leads back to the ridge. During this climbing I kicked off some pebbles that kicked off a serious rock slide. My buddy for a solid minutes assumed I was down by Capitol Lake.

Re Hourglass: do it in spring, luckily I wrote a lovely trip report for all those interested.

[Powder_Moose]

Two, one where you'd expect it and one where you wouldn't (and the second has probably affected by behavior more).

First was on Pyramid, making some of the 3/4 moves near the top. I was with my wife on the same section (and both in a "climbing" position rather than a ledge) when we saw a football-sized rock bouncing along that had been dislodged by a party above us. I don't think they ever knew they knocked it loose. We both appropriately put our noses to the rock and it bounced by. Our partner, who heard our shouting and was crouched as well, ended up taking it in a meatier part of his shoulder, which turned out to be pretty fortunate. He ended up only with a pretty nasty looking bruise and we completed the day without too much issue.

Takeaways:
1) Know who is above you and make route decisions based on that. A lot of 3/4/5 routes have small variants that allow you to adjust your location relative to who is above you. This is particularly true for the "loose" 14ers (Pyramid, N Maroon, LB, etc.)
2) Be vocal! Being warned and going into a protective position isn't perfect (obviously, from my story) but I do believe it keeps you from taking a rock to the head or face, which is a much worse outcome.

Second was on a Harvard-Columbia traverse. We had to bail off of a ridge when a storm rolled in faster than expected. We got through the part that you might normally consider "sketchy" and were continuing through a big field of talus blocks (slope was probably 35deg) when one dislodged and trapped the leg of one of my partners at the hip. It was really heavy, refrigerator sized block easily in excess of 500-700lb. There's actually really scant evidence supporting this (if somebody is knowledgeable I'd love to hear about it), but this is the one time in my life where I feel I exhibited strength in excess of what I'd normally have in lifting that block. I'm a skeptic of these kind of stories as well, this is just my anecdotal experience. I really ended up moving it a very tiny amount relative to where it was positioned, but it was enough for her to wriggle her leg out (albeit without some skin)

Takeaways:
1) Those big talus blocks can move and even a small shift can be consequential. You can draw some comparisons between a talus slope and an avalanche slope, in that the spot with the biggest issues is likely going to be the convexity, as was the case in this instance. That kind of "talus roll" seems to happen around moraines a lot and I've been much more aware of it ever since. It also tends to be much more pronounced when you are either off route or on a less popular route.

[illusion7il]

OK so I am hearing a lot of people talk about rockfall. One of these days I plan to climb the Hourglass (doesn't sound like there is any other way up Little Bear). What is the correct procedure when you see or hear rockfall above you?

I'd give the NW a go up LB. It stays at class 2/3 until just below the ridge if you zigzag the path of least resistance, then scramble onto the LB-Blanca ridge for a brief climb up. Then you can descend the HG (recommend taking a harness, rap device, rap gloves, and know how to use them) inspecting and knowing who is or isn't up there from the top down.

Tallgrass. Are you once again giving advice on a route and a peak you have NEVER climbed? Your advice is very poor and down right dangerous. I have climbed the NW face 4 times. After climbing all of the class 2 talus up to the face you will find yourself below the black hand. To get above the black hand requires careful route finding just to keep it at 4th class. (this is also mentioned in the Roach book), then yes you will zig zag up to the ridge which is class 2/3. Once you reach ridge proper its a solid 4th class, very exposed climbing to reach the summit, and I believe roach actually rates this section 5.0-5.2, and some climbers will say this section is the crux of the LB-Blanca traverse. This route can be just as dangerous with rock fall as the hourglass if there is a party above you. Rocks can come down even when there is no one above you.

Sean, if you are looking for the technically easiest route on little bear that avoids the hourglass rock fall you may want to look in the SW ridge route. There are plenty of trip reports on this. Roach rates it at class 4 but with careful route finding I found that you can keep the difficulties down to just a few moves, and there will still be a high level of exposure. You will be climbing above the hourglass so make sure you don't dislodge any rocks. Be aware that this is the shortest route on LB in length, but will take longer than any of the other routes, and there is no escape from thunderstorms on this route.

[Brad2]

TallGrass, aka zoe saldana, has in fact ascended the NW Face route of Little Bear, though I agree it's not a great recommendation for Sean Nunn, and it's especially troubling that he appears to be recommending rappelling the Hourglass using the ropes already in place, always a questionable practice.

[illusion7il]

TallGrass, aka zoe saldana, has in fact ascended the NW Face route of Little Bear, though I agree it's not a great recommendation for Sean Nunn, and it's especially troubling that he appears to be recommending rappelling the Hourglass using the ropes already in place, always a questionable practice.

Thank You for confirming that. I'm sure Tallgrass is working an incredibly lengthy response to his poor advice as we speak. And if a climber ascends the NW, how would the climber know if there is a rope in the hourglass? The ropes do get removed from time to time. Tallgrass's gear list includes everything but a rope...

[XterraRob]

Just leave from the lake really early if you want to avoid any rockfall from other parties (and go during the week). The hour glass isn't that bad. Take your time and before you know it, it's over.

[painless4u2]

In TG defense, he wrote not long ago about LB's rope:

What about rapping? I wouldn't ascend a rope me or my partner didn't inspect first, but to do that you have to climb up first. Do NOT trust any LB rope blindly.

Wouldn't it be possible, before descending, to pull up the rope and inspect it, along with it's anchor? He wasn't advocating climbing the rope, an important distinction.

[Brad2]

Route description for Little Bear NW Face from MountainProject:
"Most of the work is picking your way through the 3rd class talus and scree at a fairly high angle. Two points on the route _may_ require the use of pro: gaining the "shelf" above the "Black Hand" on the rock, gaining the ridge close to the summit. People have reported being able to pass the "black hand" to climbers right while keeping it 4th class."

[TallGrass]

I'd give the NW a go up LB. It stays at class 2/3 until just below the ridge if you zigzag the path of least resistance, then scramble onto the LB-Blanca ridge for a brief climb up. Then you can descend the HG (recommend taking a harness, rap device, rap gloves, and know how to use them) inspecting and knowing who is or isn't up there from the top down.

Tallgrass. Are you once again giving advice on a route and a peak you have NEVER climbed?

Why are you, illusion7il, lying to try and throw shade?
2015-07-02 https://www.14ers.com/php14ers/peakstat ... 1&start=80 Look at bottom right of photo #7
2015-07-02 https://www.14ers.com/php14ers/peakstat ... 4&start=80

TallGrass, aka zoe saldana, has in fact ascended the NW Face route of Little Bear, though I agree it's not a great recommendation for Sean Nunn, and it's especially troubling that he appears to be recommending rappelling the Hourglass using the ropes already in place, always a questionable practice.

Thank You for confirming that. I'm sure Tallgrass is working an incredibly lengthy response to his poor advice as we speak. And if a climber ascends the NW, how would the climber know if there is a rope in the hourglass? The ropes do get removed from time to time. Tallgrass's gear list includes everything but a rope...

Both of your voices get muffled when your pants are up.

Wouldn't it be possible, before descending, to pull up the rope and inspect it, along with it's anchor? He wasn't advocating climbing the rope, an important distinction.

Bingo! And if there's no rope or it's dodgy, downclimb the HG or descend a different route like the way you came. And I've met Sean, who is more than physically fit enough to do what I described.

Route description for Little Bear NW Face from MountainProject: "Most of the work is picking your way through the 3rd class talus and scree at a fairly high angle. Two points on the route _may_ require the use of pro: gaining the "shelf" above the "Black Hand" on the rock, gaining the ridge close to the summit. People have reported being able to pass the "black hand" to climbers right while keeping it 4th class."

Sounds like they had route finding issues and "Brad2" hasn't done the NW face.

There are obvious class 2/2+ ramps linked by short class 3 spurts ala Donkey Kong to zigzag up until just before the ridge. At that point it was class 4 the way I went, but as always in the mountains (where "geologic time includes now"), the next person might find an easier line.

[Brad2]

At that point it was class 4 the way I went

Well at least now TallGrass is classifying this route as Class 4 rather than just Class 3. This is progress I suppose.

[TallGrass]

At that point it was class 4 the way I went

Well at least now TallGrass is classifying this route as Class 4 rather than just Class 3. This is progress I suppose.

Nope, just "class 4 the way I went." Pants up please, "Brad2".