Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

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ker0uac
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by ker0uac »

highpilgrim wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 9:47 am
ker0uac wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 9:26 am
FireOnTheMountain wrote: Wed May 06, 2020 9:45 am Thats what snow does, it slides.
Wow Aristotle, that blew my mind
Like Captco, you should just shut up sometimes.

To paraphrase Steve Gladbach, Rocks move, feet slip and snow slides...and more time in the field increases the likelihood of that happening.
Chill man, you can pull the stick out of your ass once in a while, life isn't that serious
Those who travel to mountain-tops are half in love with themselves and half in love with oblivion
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by highpilgrim »

ker0uac wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:18 am Chill man, you can pull the stick out of your ass once in a while, life isn't that serious
And therein lies the difference between you and Captco; one of you can learn from your mistakes.
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
Hunter S Thompson

Walk away from the droning and leave the hive behind.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by ker0uac »

highpilgrim wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:22 am
ker0uac wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:18 am Chill man, you can pull the stick out of your ass once in a while, life isn't that serious
And therein lies the difference between you and Captco; one of you can learn from your mistakes.
What are you talking about? You are offended by me poking fun at that expression? If you didn't find the stupid joke funny, don't laugh.

It seems like you adopt a confrontational approach to deal with those who disagree with your points of view, it's uncalled for but whatever...
Those who travel to mountain-tops are half in love with themselves and half in love with oblivion
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by d_baker »

ker0uac wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:36 am

It seems like you adopt a confrontational approach to deal with those who disagree with your points of view, it's uncalled for but whatever...
I think The Deuce is heavily influenced and inspired by his favorite human, President Trump. Very similar traits!
hahha

Edit: But ker0uac, I really don't understand your poke at Fire, but whatever.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by highpilgrim »

d_baker wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:41 am I think The Deuce is heavily influenced and inspired by his favorite human, President drumpf.
On a positive note, drumpf's valet has the bug. Maybe he'll take it serious at this point.

Not.
Call on God, but row away from the rocks.
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Walk away from the droning and leave the hive behind.
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by Monster5 »

Thanks, DArcy, but it'd be hypocritical of me not to open my decisions up to criticism or analysis. I'd rather the criticism be based on incident facts and first-hand decision-making than have someone project/judge decisions based on inaccurate news reports, or third-hand analysis. The Peru incident had a good outcome, whereas a number other snow accidents I've been party to have not.

In this case, we have a fairly objective report of the incident by the CAIC but we're lacking a first hand account of decisions which led to the accident. Per the CAIC report, I'm sure the party could argue minor details (one sun-drenched aspect to another or time of incident), but the overall summary is more or less accurate: a party descended a sun-drenched avalanche path rather than the trail.
We do not have a first-hand report of the decision-making process and it is fully their choice for when/if to provide one. Thus we cannot truly judge or analyze the decisions accurately. Nor is it prudent to demand.

We do have Pat's report of why certain decisions were made, for better or worse, but in order for us to empathize and calibrate our own decision-making process, it is important to understand both the pros and cons of each justification. IMO, it is hubristic and unproductive to portray decisions as good without likewise pointing out the bad. I can point to a handful of decisions I make on every single trip that worked out well but easily could have worked out poorly, and vice versa.

Ironically, in my experience, some of the best, boldest, and most-respected climbers are quite oblivious to consequences. Sometimes I wish I had their ability to turn the mind off when blitzing across a shooting gallery. But then again, I'm glad that most of my partners are still alive.

DArcyS wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 12:22 am I had this thought today: it's one thing for you to write about your experiences, quite another for me to write about them. My apologies if my post elicited bad memories.
[/quote-
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by d_baker »

Monster5 wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:49 am
Ironically, in my experience, some of the best, boldest, and most-respected climbers are quite oblivious to consequences. Sometimes I wish I had their ability to turn the mind off when blitzing across a shooting gallery.
Monster, do you think they're truly oblivious or have they become complacent, falling into the heuristic traps/human factor symptoms?
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by Monster5 »

Yes?
As much as the age trope is overused, I'd generally place younger climbers in the oblivious camp and older climbers in the heuristic trap camp. With caveat.
Either way, there is a spectrum for the sorts who stand in front of a gun barrel.
Seek it out, avoid it, ignore it, or perhaps wait until it might be unloaded. Whatever floats your boat.
"The road to alpine climbing is pocked and poorly marked, ending at an unexpectedly closed gate 5 miles from the trailhead." - MP user Beckerich
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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by TomPierce »

d_baker wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:57 am
Monster5 wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:49 am
Ironically, in my experience, some of the best, boldest, and most-respected climbers are quite oblivious to consequences. Sometimes I wish I had their ability to turn the mind off when blitzing across a shooting gallery.
Monster, do you think they're truly oblivious or have they become complacent, falling into the heuristic traps/human factor symptoms?
Yeah, I pondered that comment too...but agree with it. Makes me wonder if it's a learned skill or just a roll of the dice. Sometimes I beat myself up for taking too conservative approach and bailing off a climb. Occasionally for objective reasons, but often for subjective reasons too fuzzy to articulate (just not into that day/"sixth sense," whatever). But afterwards I'll occasionally think about some bold people I've climbed with or knew of who would have gone forward, and then think "well, he's now dead, and that guy is dead..." There's no answer to this riddle, but worth thinking about.

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Re: Glissading Accident Horn's Peak (Sangres)

Post by Trotter »

d_baker wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:57 am
Monster5 wrote: Thu May 07, 2020 10:49 am
Ironically, in my experience, some of the best, boldest, and most-respected climbers are quite oblivious to consequences. Sometimes I wish I had their ability to turn the mind off when blitzing across a shooting gallery.
Monster, do you think they're truly oblivious or have they become complacent, falling into the heuristic traps/human factor symptoms?
Well if glissading down a snow trough has say a 1% chance of sliding, and you do it 49 times without no problems, its very easy to think its safe to do and approach the next time with no hesitation. But we all take minor risks without considering that it could go bad. Even hiking a 14er, statistically if you do it enough, you will get injured. Does that actually stop us? Clearly not.
You have to choose your level of risk you are comfortable with. Most of us would probably glissade down a slope that has a 0.1% chance of a slide...but what about 1% ? Or 10% ?
After climbing a great hill, one only finds that there are many more hills to climb. -Nelson Mandela
Whenever I climb I am followed by a dog called Ego. -Nietzsche
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