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Aphelion wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:25 am

DArcyS wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:14 am
Are you talking to me?

Not you specifically, but the general line of defense here from the CMC.

FYI, not a CMC member, although I use to be. And I think I said in my first post "not intending to defend." Hmm.

Although I would go back and edit out "mistake." Mistake suggests right or wrong, black or white. "Better decision making" accounts for probabilities. Many here go to "mistake" based on the outcome. But there's a probability of that rock letting loose or not letting loose, and if it didn't let loose, no mistake was made? Regardless, better decisions could have been made even if by chance that rock had not let loose.

But don't worry. Perhaps someday decades down the line you too might have the opportunity to assess whether or not you could have made a better decision.

Monster5 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:46 pm It's possible to both support Britt and recognize the factors that went into an accident.
This isn't an either/or type of thing and Britt's humble enough where pride won't conflict with accident discourse.
It's impossible to eliminate all risk in mountaineering, but we sure as hell can reduce it.

Agreed -- to an extent. Britt is a great guy. I wouldn't be surprised if it came out that he tried to carry someone else's pack on the way down from this incident; I've witnessed him doing that sort of thing. And he's probably reliving -- and rethinking -- that day right now.

But mountains don't give a crap how nice you are. They often don't care a whit if you are one of the best mountaineers on the planet. We should all have questions about what was going on that day that we use to help us mitigate risk in our future adventures. At the same time, public armchair quarterbacking -- especially with incomplete information -- when the effect (intended or not) is to cast aspersions from a high and mighty throne is disappointing to me and only furthers polarization. (Monster, I am NOT referring to you here; I thought your comment was a good jumping off point for a reason.) If you haven't been in a position where you made mistakes in the mountains and got lucky, you've either got one hike under your belt, or you should play the lottery.

I wish Britt and all involved a speedy recovery.

DArcyS wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:34 am
But don't worry. Perhaps someday decades down the line you too might have the opportunity to assess whether or not you could have made a better decision.

I have had the opportunity, numerous times. I've been in the mountains for decades, and I've made bad decisions, some of which have hurt me. I hope I've learned from that. I also believe that once you take people's money and accept a leadership role in guiding them in the right way to do things, you no longer have the luxury of carelessly screwing up and then writing it off as a learning experience. I've taught people before (I am not a professional guide), and if I take someone out and lead them into an easily avoidable disaster, I fully expect to be raked over the coals for my failure. It sucks that globreal got hurt, and I wish him the best, but this attitude of "nobody can criticize us because we're such nice guys and we don't pay our staff" is ridiculous.

Aphelion wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:54 am

DArcyS wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:34 am
But don't worry. Perhaps someday decades down the line you too might have the opportunity to assess whether or not you could have made a better decision.

I have had the opportunity, numerous times. I've been in the mountains for decades, and I've made bad decisions, some of which have hurt me. I hope I've learned from that. I also believe that once you take people's money and accept a leadership role in guiding them in the right way to do things, you no longer have the luxury of carelessly screwing up and then writing it off as a learning experience. I've taught people before (I am not a professional guide), and if I take someone out and lead them into an easily avoidable disaster, I fully expect to be raked over the coals for my failure. It sucks that globreal got hurt, and I wish him the best, but this attitude of "nobody can criticize us because we're such nice guys and we don't pay our staff" is ridiculous.

It's not that you criticize, it's the lack of tact by which you criticize that's the issue. But, hey, not really my problem, gotta get back to work, have a good one.

Aphelion wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:54 am It sucks that globreal got hurt, and I wish him the best, but this attitude of "nobody can criticize us because we're such nice guys and we don't pay our staff" is ridiculous.

This isn't about NOT being able to criticize someone who's a nice guy or an organization of volunteers. It's: when you haven't heard the full story, don't be so hasty to so confidently condemn.

Edited to add:
Sure, have your questions. Use them in a constructive manner: to learn and help mitigate risk in the future. But (1) DON'T wield your questions to trash someone or overly generalize about an organization (no, I am no longer a member of CMC), and (2) make sure you hold off on final judgment until you get the full story - or at least show some awareness that you don't have all the facts.

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CarpeDM wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:50 am And, yeah, CMC is not an organization of professionals. But look around -- there are a lot of folks on this site giving out advice as if they were pros, too.

I don't mean to say that the folks who are arguing against the CMC because it is volunteer in nature routinely dispense bad advice. I trust the advice from several of them most times myself. What I mean is: that argument sounds pretty silly coming from the non-pros here who are so willing to give advice on a public forum.

There is a little bit of a difference between gathering free advice from an online forum vs. paying hundreds of dollars for a class that is supposed to teach you how to climb mountains safely.

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Bill,
Will you please lock this thread? It's devolved away from the OP into "he said, she said" and is spiraling into the bin of senseless bicker. Britt & the others do not deserve this.