The Borneman/Lampert guidebook had maps . Not particularly useful photocopies of USGS topos... I have entire file drawer filled with 7.5' and 15' USGS topos.12ersRule wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:39 pmDam, at least Roach books had a map. I ended up getting every Trails Illustrated map for the 14ers at least because those Roach maps were a little small.
I do know of people who if they were going on a backpack, they'd run out and buy up every 64k topo of the areas they were covering.
Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group
"A couple more shots of whiskey,
the women 'round here start looking good"
the women 'round here start looking good"
Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group
I think my point wasn't clear:
-Educational-based PSAR will help a good many people that actively seek out help and resources ahead of time.
-Those people are less likely to miss that crossover anyways.
-There are a lot of people who inevitably do NOT seek out adequate resources or attain adequate skillsets (subjective) ahead of time. The relative percentage of hikers in this category might be consistent over the years, but total numbers are ballooning.
-Rescuing these sorts takes resources and introduces risk (specifically talking poor route planners missing the crossover). Letting them experience the consequences without intervention is not a practical nor humane solution.
-Go Euro or Longs peak style, install a single damn flamingo pink flashing sign, and drop several easily avoided rescues/recoveries at the expense of annoying a handful of "back-in-my-day" people for a couple minutes.
---
Per below, I'm confused if this is intended to chastise me or validate me regarding ill-prepared sorts tackling the Needle. Either way, it suggests you might consider expanding your skillset.
-Educational-based PSAR will help a good many people that actively seek out help and resources ahead of time.
-Those people are less likely to miss that crossover anyways.
-There are a lot of people who inevitably do NOT seek out adequate resources or attain adequate skillsets (subjective) ahead of time. The relative percentage of hikers in this category might be consistent over the years, but total numbers are ballooning.
-Rescuing these sorts takes resources and introduces risk (specifically talking poor route planners missing the crossover). Letting them experience the consequences without intervention is not a practical nor humane solution.
-Go Euro or Longs peak style, install a single damn flamingo pink flashing sign, and drop several easily avoided rescues/recoveries at the expense of annoying a handful of "back-in-my-day" people for a couple minutes.
---
Per below, I'm confused if this is intended to chastise me or validate me regarding ill-prepared sorts tackling the Needle. Either way, it suggests you might consider expanding your skillset.
mtree wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:37 pm
Before you look too far down your noses at those people, remember how you were on your first couple dozen 14ers.
As for me:
1) don't know how to set a waypoint, (I have no clue. No GPS either.)
2) don't know how to read a topo or use a navigation app, (See above.)
3) will place a cairn/tape in some idiotic spot that will get others lost, (Who's to say if its an idiotic spot?)
4) view "route-finding" as looking up a photo screenshot with pretty lines on it, (Could work.)
5) don't peruse these forums for warnings, tips and tricks until AFTER they've made their mistake. (Where's the adventure in that?)
When my mom used to scold me with a bunch of finger-wagging I remember exactly what was going through my mind. This is not the kind of information those people will actually use... nowadays.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group
Borneman and Lampert is a wonderfully readable book, and offers almost turn-by-turn directions compared to Ormes.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group
I really think there are people who have a hard time with it no matter how much they get out. I've had partners that I'd never trust to find the right line.Kevin Baker wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:52 amVery true, Ryan. I would suspect that a lot of 14er finishers can't even navigate up a peak with no trail and no beta. The navigation resources available these days (Inreach, Gaia, CalTopo, etc) are light years ahead of what was available even just 10 years ago. It's not rocket science to make a mental/visual note of where both gullies are entered/exited on the Needle. Routefinding is a skill that is fine tuned over time and unfortunately many never learn it to begin with.Monster5 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:28 am Maybe I'm more pessimistic than Tom, but 2/3 the people doing 14ers nowadays:
1) don't know how to set a waypoint,
2) don't know how to read a topo or use a navigation app,
3) will place a cairn/tape in some idiotic spot that will get others lost,
4) view "route-finding" as looking up a photo screenshot with pretty lines on it,
5) don't peruse these forums for warnings, tips and tricks until AFTER they've made their mistake.
Or at least that's how I was the first time I did the Needle.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group
I think people have called this "14erering". I feel like I've seen tons of it recently and especially as I've tried to sharpen my skill set I've noticed a lot of people who have accomplishments/"experience" but don't have the skills to do it safely. I think you can have experience without being experienced if that makes any senseKevin Baker wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:52 amVery true, Ryan. I would suspect that a lot of 14er finishers can't even navigate up a peak with no trail and no beta. The navigation resources available these days (Inreach, Gaia, CalTopo, etc) are light years ahead of what was available even just 10 years ago. It's not rocket science to make a mental/visual note of where both gullies are entered/exited on the Needle. Routefinding is a skill that is fine tuned over time and unfortunately many never learn it to begin with.Monster5 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:28 am Maybe I'm more pessimistic than Tom, but 2/3 the people doing 14ers nowadays:
1) don't know how to set a waypoint,
2) don't know how to read a topo or use a navigation app,
3) will place a cairn/tape in some idiotic spot that will get others lost,
4) view "route-finding" as looking up a photo screenshot with pretty lines on it,
5) don't peruse these forums for warnings, tips and tricks until AFTER they've made their mistake.
Or at least that's how I was the first time I did the Needle.
As I've been doing more centennials and learning to backcountry ski I've been very aware of how easy we have it on the 14ers. The picture-by-picture beta is amazing. I feel like the Needle especially seems to attract a lot of people who just don't understand how to prepare for route finding. A lot of times in the news I see people who are hurt/die described as experienced hikes "having done many fourteeners" but as many of us know that doesn't necessarily mean anything. What matters is those fundamental mountaineering and critical thinking skills.
I know several finishers who I'll never hike C3 + with just because they don't really have those skills, even though they finished. I think it's funny how much weight we put on finishing in CO when the hardest part of the 14ers is really finding the time to do it. Lots of stupid people have climbed Cap - It doesn't make them experienced mountaineers.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group
That is true, Bill. I think people rely on more experienced partners to get them up peaks and never take the time to acquire the skills. It's very sad to see people perishing from very avoidable mistakes when there are excellent resources like your site available. Everyone makes routefinding mistakes in the mountains regardless of skill level, but you would think technology would reduce mistakes.BillMiddlebrook wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:30 pmI really think there are people who have a hard time with it no matter how much they get out. I've had partners that I'd never trust to find the right line.Kevin Baker wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:52 amVery true, Ryan. I would suspect that a lot of 14er finishers can't even navigate up a peak with no trail and no beta. The navigation resources available these days (Inreach, Gaia, CalTopo, etc) are light years ahead of what was available even just 10 years ago. It's not rocket science to make a mental/visual note of where both gullies are entered/exited on the Needle. Routefinding is a skill that is fine tuned over time and unfortunately many never learn it to begin with.Monster5 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:28 am Maybe I'm more pessimistic than Tom, but 2/3 the people doing 14ers nowadays:
1) don't know how to set a waypoint,
2) don't know how to read a topo or use a navigation app,
3) will place a cairn/tape in some idiotic spot that will get others lost,
4) view "route-finding" as looking up a photo screenshot with pretty lines on it,
5) don't peruse these forums for warnings, tips and tricks until AFTER they've made their mistake.
Or at least that's how I was the first time I did the Needle.
Always do what you are afraid to do. -Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group
[/quote]
Imagine having to use this route description....
crestone route.jpg
No GPS, no internet weather forecasts/route descriptions.
[/quote]
Those were the days! You had to be very "risk adverse" back in the 70's and 80's with only a paragraph of beta and no "paint by numbers" diagrams of technical climbs. Well, and no cellphones, GPS's and such. It's quite amazing some of us are still alive. The plus side is not many people were climbing in those days compared to now.....
Imagine having to use this route description....
crestone route.jpg
No GPS, no internet weather forecasts/route descriptions.
[/quote]
Those were the days! You had to be very "risk adverse" back in the 70's and 80's with only a paragraph of beta and no "paint by numbers" diagrams of technical climbs. Well, and no cellphones, GPS's and such. It's quite amazing some of us are still alive. The plus side is not many people were climbing in those days compared to now.....
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group
Bill is right and maybe I can take Marsters and Tom P in a pessimism duel, but also--technology creates new problems with its solutions.BillMiddlebrook wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 2:30 pmI really think there are people who have a hard time with it no matter how much they get out. I've had partners that I'd never trust to find the right line.Kevin Baker wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:52 amVery true, Ryan. I would suspect that a lot of 14er finishers can't even navigate up a peak with no trail and no beta. The navigation resources available these days (Inreach, Gaia, CalTopo, etc) are light years ahead of what was available even just 10 years ago. It's not rocket science to make a mental/visual note of where both gullies are entered/exited on the Needle. Routefinding is a skill that is fine tuned over time and unfortunately many never learn it to begin with.Monster5 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:28 am Maybe I'm more pessimistic than Tom, but 2/3 the people doing 14ers nowadays:
1) don't know how to set a waypoint,
2) don't know how to read a topo or use a navigation app,
3) will place a cairn/tape in some idiotic spot that will get others lost,
4) view "route-finding" as looking up a photo screenshot with pretty lines on it,
5) don't peruse these forums for warnings, tips and tricks until AFTER they've made their mistake.
Or at least that's how I was the first time I did the Needle.
Over-reliance on tech is driving basic life skills like operating a car (let alone reading a topo or having a real-life conversation) into extinction.
But what do I know? I didn't own a GPS while doing the CO 14ers or the first 50-60 13ers--probably more than half of my ranked summits--and freely admit reliance on more skilled folk for 5th class peaks.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group
I was a field training officer and taught land nav for ROTC. Those were trying times.
This entire thread reminded me of my early driving days. Imagine living in Los Angeles and using a thomas guide to get from point a to b. Maybe that's why I have ok route founding skills.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group
I missed that sh*t first time ever up on the Needle, mid winter and went down the wrong gulley. We made it work.
What I'm mostly getting at though, and what seems a segue to this discussion, is that self rescue is more and more going by the wayside as the masses of people in the mountains continues to increase and technology improves (although all thats really needed is technology from the early 2000s to get yourself rescued). I do agree with Mtree, people don't HAVE TO peruse every dang TR, comment etc on a route (not that you all are saying they do). Adventure does indeed reside in the unknown, just use rescue as the VERY VERY VERY last ditch effort...imo at least.
Also, from a rock climbing perspective, a'int nothing wrong with a pretty line on a picture! That's however a discussion for another website.
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