Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group

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GordoByrn
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group

Post by GordoByrn »

Another useful tip is to run a track from the TH.
Inreach logging to the Earthmate app on my phone, and pinging the satellite on 10' intervals.
Really helpful to me in the winter, below treeline.
+++
Colorado 14er Disasters - enjoyable read
+++
SAR in the Sangres
https://www.amazon.com/Search-Rescue-Sa ... 555664644/
+++
The beta on this site is so good, we can easily put waypoints into our GPS before we head out, particularly on the turns that lead to fatal accidents.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group

Post by ncxhjhgvbi »

I wonder if the slew of recent rescues will deter some. Does anyone know if Capitol saw a dropoff after 2017? I checked the CFI data but it isn't precise enough to make any assumptions.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group

Post by angry »

TomPierce wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:39 am This has been covered before, and probably will remain controversial, but isn't the better (and admittedly, probably naiive/idealistic) option for climbers to simply get better at basic mountaineering skills? I mean, this isn't rocket science: You came up the very route you now want to go down. So pause occasionally, look behind you, commit the descent route to your short term memory. Duh. Maybe place a few small cairns, just a couple of small stacked rocks, if you really need to. Safely remove them when you descend.

I'm not some sort of mountaineering bad ass, but I've climbed the Needle twice and both times I ascended different variations of the Ellingwood Arete (aka Ledges) up the face opposite of the decent route, i.e. I didn't have the benefit of getting a preview of the decent route by climbing up it, I was seeing it fresh for the first time after our first ascent. Even with that handicap both of our descents were relatively uneventful. I just don't see the need to dumb things down by placing a sign. Super basic mountaineering skills should get you down safely, esp in this age of photo-by-photo beta (we didn't have that luxury when I first climbed it).

Fwiw, I have no problem w surveyors tape, just remove it on the descent, you'll be passing right by it.

Just my opinions.

-Tom
THIS. I've also climbed the Needle twice, once via Ellingwood Arete and once via the Traverse. So I also didn't have a preview of the descent route and it wasn't difficult to find my way either time...and i'm no expert either. For those that do go up and down the same way, why not create a waypoint on their gps? (gaia phone app would work).
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group

Post by derekpetrie »

I am an aspiring class 3+ hiker, so these topics are really interesting to me. One of the reasons I haven’t pursued much class 3+ yet is I am still developing my route finding skills to the point I’m comfortable and reasonably confident to tackle tougher hikes. The excellent information shared by CCSAR made me consider a few things:

- In the clear patterns (like the gully crossover on needle,) we don’t know the relative experience of the members in the party; so while it’s east to assume someone who needed SAR lacked the proper skill, that’s a faulty conclusion - especially considering the avg age was 36.5 and a large chunk of rescues invoked parties of 2 or more climbers

- Given these patterns exist, and we have principles to keep the wilderness wild, what are the gaps in awareness or training that the hiking community should promote for these routes? The route descriptions already do a great job of calling out the critical points on the needle route, what else could be done? I totally agree with the tactics mentioned here of committing the down route to short term memory or placing temporary cairns, but short term memory is highly fallible. This is especially true when you add in fatigue, changing light and weather conditions, or just being in a slightly different position on the mountain coming down that you were going up. And gps can also have errors. Is there something else these hikers in need of SAR aren’t doing?

- How much of this is a function of just more people on the mountain? It may be a hard number to arrive at, but are we seeing a greater % of hikers being rescued, or just a greater volume of rescues because there are more hikers?

EDIT: Avg age is 36.5 for rescued hikers, not 56.5
Last edited by derekpetrie on Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group

Post by Monster5 »

Maybe I'm more pessimistic than Tom, but 2/3 the people doing 14ers nowadays:
1) don't know how to set a waypoint,
2) don't know how to read a topo or use a navigation app,
3) will place a cairn/tape in some idiotic spot that will get others lost,
4) view "route-finding" as looking up a photo screenshot with pretty lines on it,
5) don't peruse these forums for warnings, tips and tricks until AFTER they've made their mistake.

Or at least that's how I was the first time I did the Needle.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group

Post by SchralpTheGnar »

SamWerner wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:16 am
That was the only route I've done that for, and given that in the time between mine and your messages someone had to be evacuated for missing a turn easily prevented by marking the route, I think it was wise. Yes there's the risk of relying on tape that could blow away or have someone else take it down, but until there's a sign to prevent people from going down the wrong route into danger, a small piece of tape is a much lower impact to the mountain than a helicopter.
It's still poor form, you can convince yourself that it was the right thing to do, certainly better than helicopters flying and people dying, but even better would being able to descend a rock route without leaving tape. People descend the needle safely all the time without marking the route, the mountains are one of the last bastions of freedom in this world and I'd like to at least try to keep them that way.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group

Post by supranihilest »

SchralpTheGnar wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:49 am
SamWerner wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:16 am
That was the only route I've done that for, and given that in the time between mine and your messages someone had to be evacuated for missing a turn easily prevented by marking the route, I think it was wise. Yes there's the risk of relying on tape that could blow away or have someone else take it down, but until there's a sign to prevent people from going down the wrong route into danger, a small piece of tape is a much lower impact to the mountain than a helicopter.
It's still poor form, you can convince yourself that it was the right thing to do, certainly better than helicopters flying and people dying, but even better would being able to descend a rock route without leaving tape. People descend the needle safely all the time without marking the route, the mountains are one of the last bastions of freedom in this world and I'd like to at least try to keep them that way.
Many would also consider it trash and be likely to remove it prior to the person who placed it coming back down, myself included. Cairns are a better solution than manmade materials.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group

Post by Kevin Baker »

Monster5 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:28 am Maybe I'm more pessimistic than Tom, but 2/3 the people doing 14ers nowadays:
1) don't know how to set a waypoint,
2) don't know how to read a topo or use a navigation app,
3) will place a cairn/tape in some idiotic spot that will get others lost,
4) view "route-finding" as looking up a photo screenshot with pretty lines on it,
5) don't peruse these forums for warnings, tips and tricks until AFTER they've made their mistake.

Or at least that's how I was the first time I did the Needle.
Very true, Ryan. I would suspect that a lot of 14er finishers can't even navigate up a peak with no trail and no beta. The navigation resources available these days (Inreach, Gaia, CalTopo, etc) are light years ahead of what was available even just 10 years ago. It's not rocket science to make a mental/visual note of where both gullies are entered/exited on the Needle. Routefinding is a skill that is fine tuned over time and unfortunately many never learn it to begin with.
Always do what you are afraid to do. -Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group

Post by rijaca »

Kevin Baker wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:52 am Very true, Ryan. I would suspect that a lot of 14er finishers can't even navigate up a peak with no trail and no beta. The navigation resources available these days (Inreach, Gaia, CalTopo, etc) are light years ahead of what was available even just 10 years ago. It's not rocket science to make a mental/visual note of where both gullies are entered/exited on the Needle. Routefinding is a skill that is fine tuned over time and unfortunately many never learn it to begin with.
Imagine having to use this route description....
crestone route.jpg
crestone route.jpg (291.6 KiB) Viewed 3488 times
No GPS, no internet weather forecasts/route descriptions.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group

Post by mtree »

Kevin Baker wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:52 am
Monster5 wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:28 am Maybe I'm more pessimistic than Tom, but 2/3 the people doing 14ers nowadays:
1) don't know how to set a waypoint,
2) don't know how to read a topo or use a navigation app,
3) will place a cairn/tape in some idiotic spot that will get others lost,
4) view "route-finding" as looking up a photo screenshot with pretty lines on it,
5) don't peruse these forums for warnings, tips and tricks until AFTER they've made their mistake.

Or at least that's how I was the first time I did the Needle.
Very true, Ryan. I would suspect that a lot of 14er finishers can't even navigate up a peak with no trail and no beta. The navigation resources available these days (Inreach, Gaia, CalTopo, etc) are light years ahead of what was available even just 10 years ago. It's not rocket science to make a mental/visual note of where both gullies are entered/exited on the Needle. Routefinding is a skill that is fine tuned over time and unfortunately many never learn it to begin with.
Before you look too far down your noses at those people, remember how you were on your first couple dozen 14ers.
As for me:
1) don't know how to set a waypoint, (I have no clue. No GPS either.)
2) don't know how to read a topo or use a navigation app, (See above.)
3) will place a cairn/tape in some idiotic spot that will get others lost, (Who's to say if its an idiotic spot?)
4) view "route-finding" as looking up a photo screenshot with pretty lines on it, (Could work.)
5) don't peruse these forums for warnings, tips and tricks until AFTER they've made their mistake. (Where's the adventure in that?)

When my mom used to scold me with a bunch of finger-wagging I remember exactly what was going through my mind. This is not the kind of information those people will actually use... nowadays.
- I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was blaming you.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group

Post by 12ersRule »

rijaca wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:26 pm Imagine having to use this route description....

No GPS, no internet weather forecasts/route descriptions.
Dam, at least Roach books had a map. I ended up getting every Trails Illustrated map for the 14ers at least because those Roach maps were a little small.

I do know of people who if they were going on a backpack, they'd run out and buy up every 64k topo of the areas they were covering.
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Re: Rescue Patterns in the Crestone Group

Post by rijaca »

mtree wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:37 pm
Before you look too far down your noses at those people, remember how you were on your first couple dozen 14ers.
As for me:
1) don't know how to set a waypoint, (I have no clue. No GPS either.)
2) don't know how to read a topo or use a navigation app, (See above.)
3) will place a cairn/tape in some idiotic spot that will get others lost, (Who's to say if its an idiotic spot?)
4) view "route-finding" as looking up a photo screenshot with pretty lines on it, (Could work.)
5) don't peruse these forums for warnings, tips and tricks until AFTER they've made their mistake. (Where's the adventure in that?)

When my mom used to scold me with a bunch of finger-wagging I remember exactly what was going through my mind. This is not the kind of information those people will actually use... nowadays.
I remember! :mrgreen:

1. I don't own a GPS. Weren't available when I first climbed the Crestones (1985). Learned to look behind occasionally.
2. Learned to read a topo in Boy Scouts. Also had instruction in ROTC.
3. Have built a total of one cairn. Knocked it down on the descent.
4. I generally don't read WildWanderer's TRs.
5. Frankly, there isn't anything new to be learned from all the warnings.
"A couple more shots of whiskey,
the women 'round here start looking good"
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