Risk Factors

[-wren-]

In recent times I've been moving more and more into a higher risk category (such as recently going alone on the Bells Traverse with no ropes and staying mostly ridge proper over immense exposure with just regular hiking boots on my feet)

This sounds like a dangerous addiction. Please consider adding more tools to your toolkit (like ropes) vs. just pushing up the risk factor.

+1. The way that risk compounds is pretty hard to grasp from a human perspective for most people if not everyone. People say that it’s trivial for a reason. Safe travels

[14ercooper]

I think the community has become much more risk-taking in the past few years (both here, on other 14er forums, and especially on IG). It seems like those of us who are fairly conservative aren't appreciated and valued anymore thus you see less posts from some of the old guard- if you question someone's poor decision making you are the one who is derided. It seems like the posts that generate approval within the greater Colorado mountain community are those involving people on the 'elite' edge of the spectrum (unroped Class 5, many peaks done in a day, and FKTs). I can't count the number of times lately that I see experienced members of the community several peaks deep into the day with black clouds all around them who should have already descended. 10 years ago these people would have been asked what they were thinking, now they are applauded for their bravery.

The 'average joe' hiker and conservative decision making is viewed indifferently by many in this community. One of the things I take most pride in is doing the peaks as safely as possible- this means picking the right weather, conditions, and route choice (alternatives are always an option). I didn't do any of the Great Traverses as I felt they added risk I didn't want to take- just go ahead an asterik next to my 14er finisher list.

For gear- I always were a helmet on C3, usually on C2+ and sometimes even on regular C2 if it was steep grass and felt there was some risk of rockfall from above. Yeah, I'm not cool. Rant over.

I mean, it's a 14er finisher list, not a route finisher list. As someone who learned from a conservative climber, I'm also a very conservative climber. I'll wear a helmet, turn around if needed, etc. Sure, I'll push 5+ peak days but only in good weather. Bravo for anybody who tries to climb smart so they can still be going strong decades later. My saying is "I climb crazy, I don't climb stupid" and my rule is "never do anything if I'm not confident I'll walk myself back to my car at the end of the day" - and I really do feel more of the "new" climbers need to adopt a safer mindset before the consequences catch up to them.

[bdloftin77]

One of my favorite self-coined sayings is: there are old climbers, and there are bold climbers, but there are no old bold climbers!

An adage worthy of consideration. Thanks for posting.

[-wren-]

One of my favorite self-coined sayings is: there are old climbers, and there are bold climbers, but there are no old bold climbers!

An adage worthy of consideration. Thanks for posting.

That’s a Paul Petzoldt quote right?

[HikerGuy]

I appreciate this discussion. I'm very conservative in my approach and during my outings. However, as someone who is almost always solo, I have not worn my helmet as often as I should. I plan to work on that.

EDIT: In regards to helmet wearing, a big fall will likely be fatal regardless of wearing one or not. As I hike alone, rockfall is usually not a major concern. However, I think I have discounted how a minor slip or stumble on steeper terrain or talus could easily lead to a serious head injury. My wife has warned me that if I fall, it better be fatal because she's not changing my diapers. It's easy to become complacent over time and that is not fair to ourselves or those who love us.

[Bill G]

The FB picture of sarah on the knife shows both the confidence of youth and a pose I doubt most of us would never attempt. BTW: she was wearing a helmet.

[Dave B]

One of my favorite self-coined sayings is: there are old climbers, and there are bold climbers, but there are no old bold climbers!

An adage worthy of consideration. Thanks for posting.

Fred Beckey singlehandedly nullifies that statement.

[Tony1]

For gear- I always were a helmet on C3, usually on C2+ and sometimes even on regular C2 if it was steep grass and felt there was some risk of rockfall from above. Yeah, I'm not cool. Rant over.

I think you're cool.

Same tbh. Doing awesome things safely is always cool. To echo someone else, I also don't bring the helmet as often as I should.

[daway8]

In recent times I've been moving more and more into a higher risk category (such as recently going alone on the Bells Traverse with no ropes and staying mostly ridge proper over immense exposure with just regular hiking boots on my feet)

This sounds like a dangerous addiction. Please consider adding more tools to your toolkit (like ropes) vs. just pushing up the risk factor.

So I'll respond with a few points but first, thanks for your concern and I'm open to hearing any counterpoints you may have...

1) I've worked up very slowly to where I am now, having climbed for at least a couple decades now. I started with the class 1/2 14ers then added easy ones like Wetterhorn and signed up for classes at the local climbing gym before moving onto the Elks and such. I've worked up to where I can relatively consistently top out on a 5.10 route in the gym and have been slowly getting closer to being able to top out on 5.11. I've also done a 1on1 class with an instructor on basic rappelling technique and a while back took the first part of a lead climbing course. So it's not like I just watched Free Solo and decided to go send the Bells Traverse...

2) This may spawn greater objection but in some ways I almost feel safer without the extra gear. Take climbing shoes for example - I'm well aware of the advantage they confer and partly because of that I don't ever bring them on a peak because I figure they would embolden me to take on even crazier terrain. By just doing the climbs in my hiking boots it forces me to stick with large, solid holds. Plus the lack of a rope keeps me vividly aware of every motion and every hold. Add to that the fact that I've heard no small number of people on this site complain that ropes often increase danger by creating additional rockfall hazard. I certainly always wear my helmet on any route with rockfall danger (which is most routes class 3 and up) but part of my reason for not bringing more gear is the above concerns about how it could in some ways increase the danger I'm exposing myself to and/or lure me into even sketchier terrain.

3) I think some of y'all who have been around for a while take for granted the community you've established over the years. I've been at least semi-active on the forum for about 5 years now, contributing a variety of trip reports and conditions updates and have done at least a hike or two with probably at least a dozen or two folks on the forum but I've just never had that magnetic personality that draws people to flock to me. Of the incredibly small number of folks I've been out with repeatedly I currently have a total of 0 consistent partners who are interested in the class 5 terrain that I've come to enjoy. Even at the climbing gym in Fort Collins I'm most frequently on auto-belay because I've only very sporadically been able to find a couple belay partners. Yes, there's Climbing Connection but even on here people caution about teaming up with random internet strangers for class 5, plus a number of the folks who post seem to be of the sort who climb 5 peaks before breakfast so I'm not going to be able to keep up with them. So, yeah, ropes are great but they're not really all that especially useful if there's no one at the other end of the rope...

[d_baker]

Daway, I think you, like most of us, fall under several points of the Human Factor.

[12ersRule]

In recent times I've been moving more and more into a higher risk category (such as recently going alone on the Bells Traverse with no ropes and staying mostly ridge proper over immense exposure with just regular hiking boots on my feet)

This sounds like a dangerous addiction. Please consider adding more tools to your toolkit (like ropes) vs. just pushing up the risk factor.

So I'll respond with a few points but first, thanks for your concern and I'm open to hearing any counterpoints you may have...

1) I've worked up very slowly to where I am now, having climbed for at least a couple decades now. I started with the class 1/2 14ers then added easy ones like Wetterhorn and signed up for classes at the local climbing gym before moving onto the Elks and such. I've worked up to where I can relatively consistently top out on a 5.10 route in the gym and have been slowly getting closer to being able to top out on 5.11. I've also done a 1on1 class with an instructor on basic rappelling technique and a while back took the first part of a lead climbing course. So it's not like I just watched Free Solo and decided to go send the Bells Traverse...

2) This may spawn greater objection but in some ways I almost feel safer without the extra gear. Take climbing shoes for example - I'm well aware of the advantage they confer and partly because of that I don't ever bring them on a peak because I figure they would embolden me to take on even crazier terrain. By just doing the climbs in my hiking boots it forces me to stick with large, solid holds. Plus the lack of a rope keeps me vividly aware of every motion and every hold. Add to that the fact that I've heard no small number of people on this site complain that ropes often increase danger by creating additional rockfall hazard. I certainly always wear my helmet on any route with rockfall danger (which is most routes class 3 and up) but part of my reason for not bringing more gear is the above concerns about how it could in some ways increase the danger I'm exposing myself to and/or lure me into even sketchier terrain.

3) I think some of y'all who have been around for a while take for granted the community you've established over the years. I've been at least semi-active on the forum for about 5 years now, contributing a variety of trip reports and conditions updates and have done at least a hike or two with probably at least a dozen or two folks on the forum but I've just never had that magnetic personality that draws people to flock to me. Of the incredibly small number of folks I've been out with repeatedly I currently have a total of 0 consistent partners who are interested in the class 5 terrain that I've come to enjoy. Even at the climbing gym in Fort Collins I'm most frequently on auto-belay because I've only very sporadically been able to find a couple belay partners. Yes, there's Climbing Connection but even on here people caution about teaming up with random internet strangers for class 5, plus a number of the folks who post seem to be of the sort who climb 5 peaks before breakfast so I'm not going to be able to keep up with them. So, yeah, ropes are great but they're not really all that especially useful if there's no one at the other end of the rope...

No question, we're playing a different game out there. My M.O. is basically to bag as many summits as I can with the path of least resistance. I haven't really done the rope thing either because maybe 1 out of every 100 summits I'm interested in warrants the use of it. Therefore, it really hasn't been a priority to be adept at it. I do enjoy venturing into the class 5-easy stuff when the opportunities come up though.

I get the feeling you're super passionate about climbing and scrambling hard routes. But I don't think going out and progressively using a smaller and smaller safety net is the best opportunity to improve. At some point, either you're gonna bite off more than you can chew, or you're just not going to progress because the stakes will too great to risk the move outside. I think you'd get a lot more growth if you found people to go on roped climbs with. Roped up, I think you'd grow a lot faster as a climber because you could push it a bit more without the same consequences. Roped up, outside, would be even better because you're on real features and not some simulated hold.

Of course the rock gym is better than nothing and I want to get to Ascent more often, so feel free to hit me up when you want to go.

[daway8]

At some point, either you're gonna bite off more than you can chew, or you're just not going to progress because the stakes will too great to risk the move outside. I think you'd get a lot more growth if you found people to go on roped climbs with. Roped up, I think you'd grow a lot faster as a climber because you could push it a bit more without the same consequences. Roped up, outside, would be even better because you're on real features and not some simulated hold.

Of course the rock gym is better than nothing and I want to get to Ascent more often, so feel free to hit me up when you want to go.

For the moment, now that I've finally opened up outdoors class 5, I'm just kind of reveling in climbing it whenever I get the chance. I'm not concerned with any particular timetable of advancing in skills since, for me, the skills are just a means to an end - namely being able to enjoy remote rugged beauty.

Ok, I may reach out sometime over the next week or two - it would be nice to have another potential belay partner or two at the gym...