Risk Factors

Threads related to Colorado mountaineering accidents but please keep it civil and respectful. Friends and relatives of fallen climbers will be reading these posts.
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Wildernessjane
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Re: Risk Factors

Post by Wildernessjane »

Tornadoman wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:08 am I think the community has become much more risk-taking in the past few years (both here, on other 14er forums, and especially on IG). It seems like those of us who are fairly conservative aren't appreciated and valued anymore thus you see less posts from some of the old guard- if you question someone's poor decision making you are the one who is derided. It seems like the posts that generate approval within the greater Colorado mountain community are those involving people on the 'elite' edge of the spectrum (unroped Class 5, many peaks done in a day, and FKTs). I can't count the number of times lately that I see experienced members of the community several peaks deep into the day with black clouds all around them who should have already descended. 10 years ago these people would have been asked what they were thinking, now they are applauded for their bravery.

The 'average joe' hiker and conservative decision making is viewed indifferently by many in this community. One of the things I take most pride in is doing the peaks as safely as possible- this means picking the right weather, conditions, and route choice (alternatives are always an option). I didn't do any of the Great Traverses as I felt they added risk I didn't want to take- just go ahead an asterik next to my 14er finisher list.

For gear- I always were a helmet on C3, usually on C2+ and sometimes even on regular C2 if it was steep grass and felt there was some risk of rockfall from above. Yeah, I'm not cool. Rant over.
While I agree with you, it seems that people are also very quick to blame or find fault with those who have experienced an accident. Perhaps it’s two sides of the same coin. If we believe those other people made massive errors in judgment then it’s easier to maintain an illusion of safety in the mountains. Admittedly, there is often something to be learned but sometimes a slip is simply a slip or rockfall just a matter of being in the wrong place, wrong time. On a related note, someone recently told me they don’t bother with a helmet because they have spent a lot of time with someone who is a “total badass” and he doesn’t wear a helmet. The thinking being, I assume, that with experience one gains the ability to avoid rock fall. My take, on the other hand, is the more time someone spends in exposed, rockfall-prone terrain, the more likely they are to have an accident involving rockfall. I also think sometimes people who have engaged in a lot of high risk activities can get a little numb to the risks and therefore become casual. Personally, I’ve never understood the aversion to helmets but I’ve had some very close calls myself and have known several people who’ve experienced TBI’s. I spent a lot of money on higher education and wearing a helmet seems a small price to pay to help protect that investment.
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Jorts
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Re: Risk Factors

Post by Jorts »

Someone once said, “Everyone who drives faster than me on the highway is a wacko. Everyone slower, an idiot.”

It’s human nature to criticize those who do something we consider objectionable by the standards of our personal code. I try not to be overly judgy. Though I fail at times. Help others progress, provide constructive feedback when appropriate.

Something I often carry with me is a tourniquet. Seem to recall a solo man dying once from a brachial arterial bleed because he couldn’t stop it.
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Re: Risk Factors

Post by climbingcue »

Wildernessjane wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 8:18 pm My take, on the other hand, is the more time someone spends in exposed, rockfall-prone terrain, the more likely they are to have an accident involving rockfall. I also think sometimes people who have engaged in a lot of high risk activities can get a little numb to the risks and therefore become casual. Personally, I’ve never understood the aversion to helmets but I’ve had some very close calls myself and have known several people who’ve experienced TBI’s. I spent a lot of money on higher education and wearing a helmet seems a small price to pay to help protect that investment.
Jane you have it 100% correct here, I agree with everything you posted. Helmets are so light these days that it is almost like they are not even on your head. But you very well save your life, so it is a no brainer for me. On a side note 30 years ago it was about 10% of people on ski slopes wearing helmets, now I would guess that it is over 90% wearing them. So that is a very nice thing that so many people value their brain.
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timisimaginary
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Re: Risk Factors

Post by timisimaginary »

Jorts wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:04 pm Someone once said, “Everyone who drives faster than me on the highway is a wacko. Everyone slower, an idiot.”
"The decay and disintegration of this culture is astonishingly amusing if you're emotionally detached from it." - George Carlin
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greenonion
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Re: Risk Factors

Post by greenonion »

Jorts wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 10:04 pm Someone once said, “Everyone who drives faster than me on the highway is a wacko. Everyone slower, an idiot.”

It’s human nature to criticize those who do something we consider objectionable by the standards of our personal code. I try not to be overly judgy. Though I fail at times. Help others progress, provide constructive feedback when appropriate.

Something I often carry with me is a tourniquet. Seem to recall a solo man dying once from a brachial arterial bleed because he couldn’t stop it.
But be careful with a tourniquet and don't use it on just anything. It should be a life threatening and last resort measure. Improper use, or prolonged tourniquet use (or both) can result in amputation of the affected limb... https://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-prof ... %20methods.

Not always apparently, but certainly can.

Edit: Best to read the whole article and not just that which is highlighted.
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Re: Risk Factors

Post by nunns »

JROSKA wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:56 pm On the subject of risk tolerance, there’s one thing I’ve noticed on this site that’s a bit annoying. In terms of the overall culture.

Whenever there’s an accident that involves someone pushing the risk limit so to speak, like for instance, doing the Bells Traverse solo, climbing Jagged un-roped or hiking Long’s as their first 14er, anyone who dares question whether they may have taken on too much is essentially told to shut up, it’s a personal decision, don’t criticize.

And yet, when you go to the other extreme, of erring on the careful side, people aren’t at all shy to rip or shame that person. Just last week in the 14er Facebook group I got mocked for daring to post a picture during a Pyramid descent with a harness on. Two years ago I shared how I climbed Capitol Peak with a guide & had two separate folks questioning why I did that. Awhile back after climbing Kelso Ridge two guys on Torrey’s summit laughed at my climbing partner for using a helmet.

Whether it involves someone taking on too much risk (in someone’s opinion) or not willing to take on enough risk, I really think these decisions, no matter where they fall in the risk spectrum are highly personal, based on each individual’s age, family situation, health, confidence, among other things. Discussion is always healthy. But criticizing, or attempting to speak into, someone’s personal and private assessment of the degree of risk they want to take on in their mountain pursuits, is inappropriate, unacceptable and rude.

I’m in full agreement that those who are somewhat risk averse need to withhold judgment of those who are willing to take on risk to a high degree. It goes both ways though. It would be nice to see it on both sides.
+1000.

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Re: Risk Factors

Post by timisimaginary »

there's an interesting new show on Nat Geo/Disney+ called Edge of the Unknown with Jimmy Chin. i've only seen a couple episodes, but it seems to deal with pro outdoor athletes talking about some of their closest calls. some of the really interesting aspects it covers include a) how much risk these athletes are willing to take on and how they judge that risk, b) the fact that even the very best of the best make mistakes and errors of judgment, and how those mistakes can lead to fatal or near fatal consequences, and c) how they deal psychologically with the aftermath of those kinds of close calls or mistakes.

these guys are obviously pushing the limits way beyond what most here would ever consider, but it's a valuable reminder that no amount of skill or experience can insulate you from danger.
"The decay and disintegration of this culture is astonishingly amusing if you're emotionally detached from it." - George Carlin
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Re: Risk Factors

Post by Eli Boardman »

The fact that someone would get laughed at for wearing a helmet scrambling is unfathomable to me.

Only posers think that safety gear makes you uncool.
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Jorts
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Re: Risk Factors

Post by Jorts »

timisimaginary wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:56 pm how they judge that risk
That's one of the most difficult things as a backcountry user to gauge whether skiing or solo scrambling. Humans generally have a tendency to underestimate risk because of the positive feedback loop bias (e.g. I've skied this dozens of times and it never slid, I must be making the right decisions). It helps to look at things through the "what if" lens to counteract that unconscious bias. I'm confident this will not slide but if it did, how big would it go? Would it funnel into a terrain trap or fan out on the apron? If there was rockfall, how exposed am I?

There have definitely been times where I'm out skiing/running/scrambling solo miles deep in the Gore and I did an assessment of "what if I twisted an ankle and couldn't get out under my own power and had to spend the night?" and came to the realization I'd stand a fair chance of dying from exposure. Not a great feeling but a risk I'm willing to accept more than I probably should.

P.S. Thanks for finding that George Carlin clip!
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Jim Davies
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Re: Risk Factors

Post by Jim Davies »

Jorts wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:35 amHumans generally have a tendency to underestimate risk because of the positive feedback loop bias (e.g. I've skied this dozens of times and it never slid, I must be making the right decisions).
They also tend to overestimate risks because of anecdotes - for example, several people reported seeing mountain lions on Facebook this week, so suddenly many people are freaking out about being attacked by lions. One result is the misapplication of resources to deal with miniscule risks - there are probably more guys carrying guns and pepper spray than wearing helmets or carrying personal rescue beacons.
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Re: Risk Factors

Post by HikerGuy »

Jim Davies wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:11 am They also tend to overestimate risks because of anecdotes - for example, several people reported seeing mountain lions on Facebook this week, so suddenly many people are freaking out about being attacked by lions.
I've never understood the the lion freakout or even black bears. If you see glowing eyes in the woods, 99.9% of the time it's a deer or cow. Moose on the other hand are worth be concerned about. If you see one, keep your distance.
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Re: Risk Factors

Post by dwoodward13 »

HikerGuy wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:38 am
Jim Davies wrote: Thu Sep 15, 2022 8:11 am They also tend to overestimate risks because of anecdotes - for example, several people reported seeing mountain lions on Facebook this week, so suddenly many people are freaking out about being attacked by lions.
I've never understood the the lion freakout or even black bears. If you see glowing eyes in the woods, 99.9% of the time it's a deer or cow. Moose on the other hand are worth be concerned about. If you see one, keep your distance.
You can add wolves to this list as well.
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