New Ford Bronco

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Conor
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Re: New Ford Bronco

Post by Conor » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:26 pm

Will_E wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:19 pm
One other notable advantage to a manual is reliability. The most common first major failure point in a modern vehicle is the automatic transmission. And they’re very expensive to replace or repair.
Citation needed. I will mention, my high school car which was brand new (yes, I was a spoiled), had the manual transmission replaced twice. Ironically, I drive older automatic transmissions than my high school vehicle and there isn't even a hint of issue with the auto transmissions. One has 290k miles on it and I am planning an engine rebuild this winter, but I'm not planning to rebuild the tranny.

If you wanted to say simpler, I could buy that. There are no electrical signals (other than maybe speed sensors), shift kits etc on a manual transmission, but simplicity doesn't always equate reliability.
TomPierce wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:10 pm
angry wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:45 pm
Scott P wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:39 pm
what advantages do they offer?
Fun factor of shifting gears and not getting bored driving.
You can also start a stick with a dead battery if you have even a moderate downhill slope to get going. "Popping the clutch" is a lost art...along with priming a white gas camp stove, belaying without a GriGri, etc etc etc.

-Tom
What if your battery is dead because your alternator went out? Do you carry around a spare alternator just in case?
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Re: New Ford Bronco

Post by mtree » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:37 pm

Scott P wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:58 pm
mtree wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:44 pm
I know the power I can manually generate (or manipulate) on my Jeep is far superior than what I could on the automatic version. The auto version was a dog going up hills. Otherwise, yes, autos these days offer better performance.
What year? The newer Wranglers have an 8-speed auto. Pre-2018 the Wrangeler autos had 3-5 speeds.

On paper at least, a 2018 and newer Wrangler should have lower gears available with the automatic.
One friend had a 2009 Wrangler in auto. Another currently has a 2015/16? Its better and has more hp (bigger engine), but still seemed to lag on hills where I can just downshift and gun it. I'd have to compare the two back-to-back on the same road to be absolutely sure, but the auto definitely couldn't snap my head back. OK. "Snap" might be a slight exaggeration.
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Re: New Ford Bronco

Post by TomPierce » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:42 pm

Conor wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:26 pm
Will_E wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:19 pm
One other notable advantage to a manual is reliability. The most common first major failure point in a modern vehicle is the automatic transmission. And they’re very expensive to replace or repair.
Citation needed. I will mention, my high school car which was brand new (yes, I was a spoiled), had the manual transmission replaced twice. Ironically, I drive older automatic transmissions than my high school vehicle and there isn't even a hint of issue with the auto transmissions. One has 290k miles on it and I am planning an engine rebuild this winter, but I'm not planning to rebuild the tranny.

If you wanted to say simpler, I could buy that. There are no electrical signals (other than maybe speed sensors), shift kits etc on a manual transmission, but simplicity doesn't always equate reliability.
TomPierce wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:10 pm
angry wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:45 pm


Fun factor of shifting gears and not getting bored driving.
You can also start a stick with a dead battery if you have even a moderate downhill slope to get going. "Popping the clutch" is a lost art...along with priming a white gas camp stove, belaying without a GriGri, etc etc etc.

-Tom
What if your battery is dead because your alternator went out? Do you carry around a spare alternator just in case?
:lol: I've been driving longer than many on this site have been alive, I haven't run into that situation. But possible I suppose.

But it raises an interesting issue for car geeks like me (I'm restoring a '62 Austin Healey with a stick, I used to work in a garage before college, etc). Popping the clutch spins the flywheel which in turn provides the compression to start the car, bypassing the starter. I'm honestly not sure if a dead alternator would prevent ignition; the battery won't charge, for sure, but the spark for ignition is from the ignition coil, right? Honestly not sure about your problem, I'll look into that.

-Tom
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Re: New Ford Bronco

Post by Conor » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:55 pm

TomPierce wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:42 pm
Conor wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:26 pm
Will_E wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:19 pm
One other notable advantage to a manual is reliability. The most common first major failure point in a modern vehicle is the automatic transmission. And they’re very expensive to replace or repair.
Citation needed. I will mention, my high school car which was brand new (yes, I was a spoiled), had the manual transmission replaced twice. Ironically, I drive older automatic transmissions than my high school vehicle and there isn't even a hint of issue with the auto transmissions. One has 290k miles on it and I am planning an engine rebuild this winter, but I'm not planning to rebuild the tranny.

If you wanted to say simpler, I could buy that. There are no electrical signals (other than maybe speed sensors), shift kits etc on a manual transmission, but simplicity doesn't always equate reliability.
TomPierce wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:10 pm


You can also start a stick with a dead battery if you have even a moderate downhill slope to get going. "Popping the clutch" is a lost art...along with priming a white gas camp stove, belaying without a GriGri, etc etc etc.

-Tom
What if your battery is dead because your alternator went out? Do you carry around a spare alternator just in case?
:lol: I've been driving longer than many on this site have been alive, I haven't run into that situation. But possible I suppose.

But it raises an interesting issue for car geeks like me (I'm restoring a '62 Austin Healey with a stick, I used to work in a garage before college, etc). Popping the clutch spins the flywheel which in turn provides the compression to start the car, bypassing the starter. I'm honestly not sure if a dead alternator would prevent ignition; the battery won't charge, for sure, but the spark for ignition is from the ignition coil, right? Honestly not sure about your problem, I'll look into that.

-Tom
Most car ignition systems are dependent on the electrical system having some life. Coil packs (which run of a control module to distribute the timing of spark) are dependent on the electrical system being alive and well. A distributor (mechanically driven by the engine) also needs the electrical system. Airplane piston 100LL engines utilize magnetos which are "Self contained" and serve as their own electrical source and spark distribution (also, most airplanes have 2 magnetos and redundant spark plugs - 2 per cylinder). An airplane with magnetos can then have complete failure of the electrical system without affecting the engine ignition system.

In other words, if disconnect the ground from a car it won't run - manual or automatic. Alternators die (I replaced my wife's toyota alternator about 18 months ago). A manual transmission won't save you in that case once the alternator dies and the battery gets worn down to a nub.

EDIT: removing the ground from the battery will render most electrical systems useless. It was used as an example of how an engine can't run without it's electrical system.
Last edited by Conor on Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Ford Bronco

Post by Scott P » Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:58 pm

mtree wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:37 pm
Scott P wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:58 pm
mtree wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:44 pm
I know the power I can manually generate (or manipulate) on my Jeep is far superior than what I could on the automatic version. The auto version was a dog going up hills. Otherwise, yes, autos these days offer better performance.
What year? The newer Wranglers have an 8-speed auto. Pre-2018 the Wrangeler autos had 3-5 speeds.

On paper at least, a 2018 and newer Wrangler should have lower gears available with the automatic.
One friend had a 2009 Wrangler in auto. Another currently has a 2015/16? Its better and has more hp (bigger engine), but still seemed to lag on hills where I can just downshift and gun it. I'd have to compare the two back-to-back on the same road to be absolutely sure, but the auto definitely couldn't snap my head back. OK. "Snap" might be a slight exaggeration.
What you say is true about old Wranglers, but those transmissions are way out of date.

I was speaking of new vehicles/transmissions. Newer automatics have more speeds, better gas mileage, and better performance.

2009 was over a decade ago and the 2015/2016 is way outdated and is history. It was only a five speed.
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Re: New Ford Bronco

Post by TomPierce » Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:47 pm

Conor wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:55 pm
TomPierce wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:42 pm
Conor wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:26 pm


Citation needed. I will mention, my high school car which was brand new (yes, I was a spoiled), had the manual transmission replaced twice. Ironically, I drive older automatic transmissions than my high school vehicle and there isn't even a hint of issue with the auto transmissions. One has 290k miles on it and I am planning an engine rebuild this winter, but I'm not planning to rebuild the tranny.

If you wanted to say simpler, I could buy that. There are no electrical signals (other than maybe speed sensors), shift kits etc on a manual transmission, but simplicity doesn't always equate reliability.



What if your battery is dead because your alternator went out? Do you carry around a spare alternator just in case?
:lol: I've been driving longer than many on this site have been alive, I haven't run into that situation. But possible I suppose.

But it raises an interesting issue for car geeks like me (I'm restoring a '62 Austin Healey with a stick, I used to work in a garage before college, etc). Popping the clutch spins the flywheel which in turn provides the compression to start the car, bypassing the starter. I'm honestly not sure if a dead alternator would prevent ignition; the battery won't charge, for sure, but the spark for ignition is from the ignition coil, right? Honestly not sure about your problem, I'll look into that.

-Tom
Most car ignition systems are dependent on the electrical system having some life. Coil packs (which run of a control module to distribute the timing of spark) are dependent on the electrical system being alive and well. A distributor (mechanically driven by the engine) also needs the electrical system. Airplane piston 100LL engines utilize magnetos which are "Self contained" and serve as their own electrical source and spark distribution (also, most airplanes have 2 magnetos and redundant spark plugs - 2 per cylinder). An airplane with magnetos can then have complete failure of the electrical system without affecting the engine ignition system.

In other words, if disconnect the ground from a car it won't run - manual or automatic. Alternators die (I replaced my wife's toyota alternator about 18 months ago). A manual transmission won't save you in that case once the alternator dies and the battery gets worn down to a nub.

EDIT: removing the ground from the battery will render most electrical systems useless. It was used as an example of how an engine can't run without it's electrical system.
Hmm...there's a lot to unpack in there, Conor. :lol: Yep, disconnecting the ground cable will render the system useless, although if you want to start a car by popping the clutch I'm not sure why you'd do that. Popping the clutch is a work-around when the electrical system isn't "alive and well," the battery can be completely dead, not even a click from the starter, nada. I've done it probably two dozen times? And driven lots of miles after ignition. But to your posed issue, I researched it and while you can pop the clutch and get ignition, if there is a totally dead alternator/generator, you're only going to have power for a spark based on whatever residual power is left in the battery, which could be close to nil, i.e. a few blocks of driving. Having said all that, and having replaced hundreds of batteries (a long, long time ago) I'd say the ratio of just-worn-out batteries vs. those caused by bad alternators is probably greater than 50:1. Total guess on that. I also recall that testing the alternator with a voltmeter always showed low voltage, not no voltage (and excess voltage indicated a bad voltage regulator). So your hypothetical is valid, but maybe a bit (or a lotta bit?) remote in likelihood.

I was curious about this, all of my pop starts have been with older cars with generators, not alternators.

OK, I'll give the Bronco-philes their thread back. :lol:

-Tom
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Re: New Ford Bronco

Post by mtree » Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:48 pm

Scott P wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:58 pm
mtree wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:37 pm
Scott P wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:58 pm


What year? The newer Wranglers have an 8-speed auto. Pre-2018 the Wrangeler autos had 3-5 speeds.

On paper at least, a 2018 and newer Wrangler should have lower gears available with the automatic.
One friend had a 2009 Wrangler in auto. Another currently has a 2015/16? Its better and has more hp (bigger engine), but still seemed to lag on hills where I can just downshift and gun it. I'd have to compare the two back-to-back on the same road to be absolutely sure, but the auto definitely couldn't snap my head back. OK. "Snap" might be a slight exaggeration.
What you say is true about old Wranglers, but those transmissions are way out of date.

I was speaking of new vehicles/transmissions. Newer automatics have more speeds, better gas mileage, and better performance.

2009 was over a decade ago and the 2015/2016 is way outdated and is history. It was only a five speed.
Like I said, I'd have to compare new models side-by-side. Just going on my limited experience.
Mine is a 2008. It may be way outdated by today's standards, but its been super reliable; a beast off road or in the snow; is in great shape; and most importantly...its paid for!
- I didn't say it was your fault. I said I was blaming you.
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Re: New Ford Bronco

Post by stephakett » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:00 pm

mtree wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 1:37 pm
Scott P wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:58 pm
mtree wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:44 pm
I know the power I can manually generate (or manipulate) on my Jeep is far superior than what I could on the automatic version. The auto version was a dog going up hills. Otherwise, yes, autos these days offer better performance.
What year? The newer Wranglers have an 8-speed auto. Pre-2018 the Wrangeler autos had 3-5 speeds.

On paper at least, a 2018 and newer Wrangler should have lower gears available with the automatic.
One friend had a 2009 Wrangler in auto. Another currently has a 2015/16? Its better and has more hp (bigger engine), but still seemed to lag on hills where I can just downshift and gun it. I'd have to compare the two back-to-back on the same road to be absolutely sure, but the auto definitely couldn't snap my head back. OK. "Snap" might be a slight exaggeration.
i can manually "downshift and gun it" in my automatic 4runner when lagging on hills. this is the "manumatic" transmission i was talking about earlier
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Re: New Ford Bronco

Post by susanjoypaul » Thu Aug 06, 2020 10:16 am

If anyone decides to buy, definitely shop around. Some dealerships are tacking on extras that aren't required by Ford but the dealer is requiring them. On the other hand, at least one dealership is selling at $1,000 below MSRP. You have until October 31 to switch dealerships, I believe. There's going to be a lot of competition for customers. I think some assume that just because a person reserved with them, they have to buy from them so they're not making any attempt at all to keep the business. Not the case, and you'll see others with better deals scooping up these customers.
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Re: New Ford Bronco

Post by lordhelmut » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:17 pm

Can't wait till these hit the market and every Brad and Chad in Corporate America buys the most expensive edition, waves their dick around the office about it and then gets stuck or busts an oil pan on the Como road.
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Re: New Ford Bronco

Post by 9patrickmurphy » Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:13 pm

lordhelmut wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:17 pm
Can't wait till these hit the market and every Brad and Chad in Corporate America buys the most expensive edition, waves their dick around the office about it and then gets stuck or busts an oil pan on the Como road.
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Re: New Ford Bronco

Post by pvnisher » Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:56 am

lordhelmut wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:17 pm
Can't wait till these hit the market and every Brad and Chad in Corporate America buys the most expensive edition, waves their dick around the office about it and then gets stuck or busts an oil pan on the Como road.
Man, so glad I'm not named Brad, Chad, Kyle, or Karen. Those names really took a dive recently.
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