Global warming shrinks mountains

The Classics
Forum rules
This forum is read-only
Locked
tundraline
Posts: 145
Joined: 9/17/2007
14ers: 18
Trip Reports (2)

Re: Global warming shrinks mountains

Post by tundraline »

rob runkle wrote:
tundraline wrote:Why would anyone who is seriously interested in the topic of global warming even bother looking at a few musings prepared by a medical doctor on the topic? This appears to be consistent with the well-established trend of global warming naysayers having to resort to citing "experts" such as Benny Peiser, Rush Limbaugh, John Coleman and the like. Even DePetrillo writes: "I learned how to develop and test nonlinear models as part of my work in pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics. I have absolutely no formal background in climate science . . . .
Why would anyone who is seriously interested in the topic of global warming even bother looking at a few musings prepared by a ex-vice president on the topic? This appears to be consistent with the well-established trend of global warming proponents having to resort to citing "experts" such as Leonardo Decaprio, Brad Bitt, Rosie O'Donnell and the like. <Sorry I don't have any disclaimers from Gore on the topic. He must be a REAL expert!!!>

Covrider... You had to know that you would get this kind of response (like from tundraline). Some people just don't understand that data anaylsis and modeling does not necessarily require one be an expert on the subject. You should have seen this one coming from a mile away Cov... :D
Rob Runkle: I've not read anything of substance you have posted on this topic. What I have read, instead, is a lot of petty nasty sniping and potshots, most with a poorly disguised gloss of superiority. Why don't you spend your time more productively by finding some credible information that supports your overtly politicized position, and posting it here for us to read? Me thinks the problem is that you are having a hard time finding something.

BTW, I'm neither a Republican nor a Democrat, so your neat little vision of the world being split into red and blue camps doesn't work. Both parties are essentially worthless, IMHO. FWIW, I am also quite confident that my understanding of scientific data and its analysis is substantially deeper than yours. On that basis, I therefore place you in the category of those who "just don't understand" data analysis and modeling. But you might be able to prove me wrong. Please have at it.
User avatar
Mark A Steiner
Posts: 1006
Joined: 4/15/2008
14ers: 3
13ers: 11

Re: Global warming shrinks mountains

Post by Mark A Steiner »

Quite amazing, given the fact that this thread at times appears dead, then in resurrected.

Feeling are pretty strong on both sides of this discussion. I believe valid points have been raised and fairly delivered. I don't believe borderline personal attacks are warranted, as all of us are human and have flaws unique to each individual. No one can be right all the time.

I still believe that there is not enough representative data collected to say yea or nay to global warming or other climate change. Even if we have good data going back to 100 years ago, major climate shifts occurred centuries before and without the help of internal combustion engines and coal-fired industrial plants. Then too, data can be interpreted in manners unique to all the interpreters.

There is always room for improvement regarding how we manage our resources, including fuels. I believe the "extract the resource for regardless of consequences elsewhere" is going the way of the dinosaur. The too, obstructive restriction of available, responsibly-extractable resources in a modern society is not an acceptable course of action either. Do you want to be told that instead of climbing five 14ers in a given year you can only hike one 13er?

Here's a question: before this thread was initiated by bayouboy some days ago, has the sum total of carbon atoms in the atmosphere, biosphere, lithosphere, mantle, outer core or inner core of the Earth increased, decreased or remained the same?
Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatever state I am, therewith to be content - Paul the Apostle.
Like it or not, I am a slow driver. Putt ... putt ... putt ...
Good day.
User avatar
rob runkle
Posts: 803
Joined: 6/12/2006
14ers: 58 2
13ers: 38
Trip Reports (44)

Re: Global warming shrinks mountains

Post by rob runkle »

tundraline wrote:Rob Runkle: I've not read anything of substance you have posted on this topic. What I have read, instead, is a lot of petty nasty sniping and potshots, most with a poorly disguised gloss of superiority. Why don't you spend your time more productively by finding some credible information that supports your overtly politicized position, and posting it here for us to read? Me thinks the problem is that you are having a hard time finding something.


Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Haha! Nice. tundraline's definition of "no substance" means, anything that he doesn't agree with. Nice. Haha! Then, you are right, I don't agree with you.

Need I remind you (oh yeah I guess I do...) I provided the following information:
Multiple sources of many scientists that don't believe the hype:
http://www.petitionproject.org/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm? ... cb00b51a12" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
IPCC Uncovered...
http://mclean.ch/climate/IPCC.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tundraline wrote:BTW, I'm neither a Republican nor a Democrat, so your neat little vision of the world being split into red and blue camps doesn't work.
Hmmm! Not sure where you got this one. :?:
You must have gotten it from my "overtly politicized position" - YOUR WORDS. Find ANYWHERE that I've posted my political position please!
You kind of MADE THAT ONE UP MAN!
tundraline wrote:FWIW, I am also quite confident that my understanding of scientific data and its analysis is substantially deeper than yours. On that basis, I therefore place you in the category of those who "just don't understand" data analysis and modeling. But you might be able to prove me wrong. Please have at it.
Then you should understand that data analysis skills are independant of knowledge on any particular topic. The author that Covrider was quoting was obviously a data analysis wiz, and gave appropriate disclaimers to their expertise in climate change. Assuming that the data is from a good source, then the analysis is valid. You immediately jumped to the disclaimer and proclaimed, "Look, he is no expert!!!"
tundraline
Posts: 145
Joined: 9/17/2007
14ers: 18
Trip Reports (2)

Re: Global warming shrinks mountains

Post by tundraline »

rob runkle wrote:
tundraline wrote:Rob Runkle: I've not read anything of substance you have posted on this topic. What I have read, instead, is a lot of petty nasty sniping and potshots, most with a poorly disguised gloss of superiority. Why don't you spend your time more productively by finding some credible information that supports your overtly politicized position, and posting it here for us to read? Me thinks the problem is that you are having a hard time finding something.


Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Haha! Nice. tundraline's definition of "no substance" means, anything that he doesn't agree with. Nice. Haha! Then, you are right, I don't agree with you.

Need I remind you (oh yeah I guess I do...) I provided the following information:
Multiple sources of many scientists that don't believe the hype:
http://www.petitionproject.org/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;? ... cb00b51a12
IPCC Uncovered...
http://mclean.ch/climate/IPCC.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
tundraline wrote:BTW, I'm neither a Republican nor a Democrat, so your neat little vision of the world being split into red and blue camps doesn't work.
Hmmm! Not sure where you got this one. :?:
You must have gotten it from my "overtly politicized position" - YOUR WORDS. Find ANYWHERE that I've posted my political position please!
You kind of MADE THAT ONE UP MAN!
tundraline wrote:FWIW, I am also quite confident that my understanding of scientific data and its analysis is substantially deeper than yours. On that basis, I therefore place you in the category of those who "just don't understand" data analysis and modeling. But you might be able to prove me wrong. Please have at it.
Then you should understand that data analysis skills are independant of knowledge on any particular topic. The author that Covrider was quoting was obviously a data analysis wiz, and gave appropriate disclaimers to their expertise in climate change. Assuming that the data is from a good source, then the analysis is valid. You immediately jumped to the disclaimer and proclaimed, "Look, he is no expert!!!"
Can't you do better than that? Pretty weak . . . and certainly not very convincing. I think Rush and GW have gotten to you. You need to be deprogrammed.
User avatar
rob runkle
Posts: 803
Joined: 6/12/2006
14ers: 58 2
13ers: 38
Trip Reports (44)

Re: Global warming shrinks mountains

Post by rob runkle »

tundraline wrote:Can't you do better than that? Pretty weak . . . and certainly not very convincing. I think Rush and GW have gotten to you. You need to be deprogrammed.
There is your example of "overtly politicized position". Oh wait, it was YOU! =D>
User avatar
covfrrider
Posts: 2135
Joined: 2/19/2008
14ers: 30 3
13ers: 3
Trip Reports (9)
Contact:

Re: Global warming shrinks mountains

Post by covfrrider »

rob runkle wrote:
Covrider... You had to know that you would get this kind of response (like from tundraline). Some people just don't understand that data anaylsis and modeling does not necessarily require one be an expert on the subject. You should have seen this one coming from a mile away Cov... :D
I don't take it personally, as there will always be those that "drink the kool-aid"... I thought the link I posted was even more enlightening, BECAUSE the author IS NOT a trained meteorologist. He was simply applying data analysis to a very small dataset, with NO BIAS in either direction.

As I stated, I think there is far too little data to make definitive assumptions about our fate... Assume the earth is 4 billion years old. The last 200 years (which is a very liberal estimation) of plausible data is 0.00000005 of that timespan... to put that in perspective, if lifespan of the earth were a 100 foot tall (10 stories +/-) building, the last 200 years would be 0.00006 inches. The average diameter of a black hair (1/450 of an inch) is 0.0022222222222222 inches.

Food for thought... Flame away!
tundraline
Posts: 145
Joined: 9/17/2007
14ers: 18
Trip Reports (2)

Re: Global warming shrinks mountains

Post by tundraline »

covfrrider wrote:
rob runkle wrote:
Covrider... You had to know that you would get this kind of response (like from tundraline). Some people just don't understand that data anaylsis and modeling does not necessarily require one be an expert on the subject. You should have seen this one coming from a mile away Cov... :D
I don't take it personally, as there will always be those that "drink the kool-aid"... I thought the link I posted was even more enlightening, BECAUSE the author IS NOT a trained meteorologist. He was simply applying data analysis to a very small dataset, with NO BIAS in either direction.

As I stated, I think there is far too little data to make definitive assumptions about our fate... Assume the earth is 4 billion years old. The last 200 years (which is a very liberal estimation) of plausible data is 0.00000005 of that timespan... to put that in perspective, if lifespan of the earth were a 100 foot tall (10 stories +/-) building, the last 200 years would be 0.00006 inches. The average diameter of a black hair (1/450 of an inch) is 0.0022222222222222 inches.

Food for thought... Flame away!
Of course, we'll probably not get to the bottom of this issue during our lifetimes with anything close to 100% certainty. The nature of the data does not lend itself to easy pat answers. And there is plenty to disagree about, if that's what you want to do. Nevertheless, 90% confidence levels in data are high enough for any competent scientist or engineers to pay real close attention (which is basically where the scientific community is on the issue of global warming being a reality and being man-induced). The writing is certainly on the wall for those who are willing to take heed. Sea levels and temperatures ARE rising. Ice shelves and glaciers ARE disappearing. Boreal forests ARE shrinking. Southern species ARE invading northern climes and higher elevations. Plant and animal species ARE disappearing at an alarming rate. Pine beetles ARE killing western forests. Dead zones and concentrations of human garbage ARE appearing in the world's oceans. India and China ARE becoming full-fledged energy consumers and polluters. And the world's population just keeps on increasing. The fact is, we human beings have wrought enormous and unprecedented changes on the planet since the dawn of the industrial revolution. These changes will only accelerate in magnitude, unless of course we choose to do something about it. Population control is certainly within human capability, as are reducing greenhouse gas emissions and increasing energy efficiency. Ignoring reality certainly will not play a part in any solution, even if you drink lots of red koolaid.
User avatar
PressOn
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/17/2008
14ers: 2

Re: Global warming shrinks mountains

Post by PressOn »

tundraline wrote:And the world's population just keeps on increasing.
I blame advances in medical science as well as advances in safety. People just aren't dying off at a fast enough rate anymore.
tundraline wrote:Population control is certainly within human capability...
Anyone else old enough to remember Logan's Run?

Sorry I don't have anything of any substance to add. :oops:
"Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead,
I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God
has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." --Phil 3:15-16
User avatar
smoove
Posts: 524
Joined: 8/2/2007
14ers: 42 11
13ers: 34 4

Re: Global warming shrinks mountains

Post by smoove »

Anyone else old enough to remember Logan's Run?
Hmm, well I was two when it came out but I have indeed seen it a few times! Yay, now I've contributed to this thread.

And...oh s**t, they would've disposed of me four years ago!!!!
User avatar
covfrrider
Posts: 2135
Joined: 2/19/2008
14ers: 30 3
13ers: 3
Trip Reports (9)
Contact:

Re: Global warming shrinks mountains

Post by covfrrider »

tundraline wrote:
covfrrider wrote:
rob runkle wrote:
Covrider... You had to know that you would get this kind of response (like from tundraline). Some people just don't understand that data anaylsis and modeling does not necessarily require one be an expert on the subject. You should have seen this one coming from a mile away Cov... :D
I don't take it personally, as there will always be those that "drink the kool-aid"... I thought the link I posted was even more enlightening, BECAUSE the author IS NOT a trained meteorologist. He was simply applying data analysis to a very small dataset, with NO BIAS in either direction.

As I stated, I think there is far too little data to make definitive assumptions about our fate... Assume the earth is 4 billion years old. The last 200 years (which is a very liberal estimation) of plausible data is 0.00000005 of that timespan... to put that in perspective, if lifespan of the earth were a 100 foot tall (10 stories +/-) building, the last 200 years would be 0.00006 inches. The average diameter of a black hair (1/450 of an inch) is 0.0022222222222222 inches.

Food for thought... Flame away!
Of course, we'll probably not get to the bottom of this issue during our lifetimes with anything close to 100% certainty. The nature of the data does not lend itself to easy pat answers. And there is plenty to disagree about, if that's what you want to do. Nevertheless, 90% confidence levels in data are high enough for any competent scientist or engineers to pay real close attention (which is basically where the scientific community is on the issue of global warming being a reality and being man-induced). The writing is certainly on the wall for those who are willing to take heed. Sea levels and temperatures ARE rising. Ice shelves and glaciers ARE disappearing. Boreal forests ARE shrinking. Southern species ARE invading northern climes and higher elevations. Plant and animal species ARE disappearing at an alarming rate. Pine beetles ARE killing western forests. Dead zones and concentrations of human garbage ARE appearing in the world's oceans. India and China ARE becoming full-fledged energy consumers and polluters. And the world's population just keeps on increasing. The fact is, we human beings have wrought enormous and unprecedented changes on the planet since the dawn of the industrial revolution. These changes will only accelerate in magnitude, unless of course we choose to do something about it. Population control is certainly within human capability, as are reducing greenhouse gas emissions and increasing energy efficiency. Ignoring reality certainly will not play a part in any solution, even if you drink lots of red koolaid.
The great thing about scientific communities? There are so many to choose from...

BTW: The oceans are not across the board warming, and if you too time to look at the link I provided, the model is the Pacific Decadel Oscillation... the oceans warm AND cool on a cycle... But if you want to believe in Global Warming being man induced, I'm sure you can find plenty of data to support that... and if you don't believe it, there's just as much data.

Bottom Line: Control the things you have control over...
User avatar
Jim Davies
Posts: 7510
Joined: 6/8/2006
14ers: 58 1
13ers: 63
Trip Reports (5)

Re: Global warming shrinks mountains

Post by Jim Davies »

covfrrider wrote:Falls in line with what I've always believed about the weather... it's cyclical, and our samples are far too small to draw any incontrovertible conclusions.
This is a great example of "confirmation bias". The MD in question just plotted some data from the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (the PDO in his caption), which is a periodic fluctuation of temperatures on opposite sides of the Pacific Ocean. If you plotted global average temperatures over the same period, they'd be trending upward, not going up and down. The good doctor just found a data set that fit his preconceived notions about the climate and used it, rather than looking for the best data available on global temperature (which is what we're talking about here, not Pacific Ocean temperature).

btw, Tundraline, have you calculated your carbon footprint lately (not counting "carbon offsets", which I consider cheating). If you're not severely cutting your personal consumption to help reduce global warming, you're a hypocrite.
Climbing at altitude is like hitting your head against a brick wall — it's great when you stop. -- Chris Darwin
I'm pretty tired. I think I'll go home now. -- Forrest Gump
tundraline
Posts: 145
Joined: 9/17/2007
14ers: 18
Trip Reports (2)

Re: Global warming shrinks mountains

Post by tundraline »

Jim Davies wrote:
covfrrider wrote:Falls in line with what I've always believed about the weather... it's cyclical, and our samples are far too small to draw any incontrovertible conclusions.
This is a great example of "confirmation bias". The MD in question just plotted some data from the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (the PDO in his caption), which is a periodic fluctuation of temperatures on opposite sides of the Pacific Ocean. If you plotted global average temperatures over the same period, they'd be trending upward, not going up and down. The good doctor just found a data set that fit his preconceived notions about the climate and used it, rather than looking for the best data available on global temperature (which is what we're talking about here, not Pacific Ocean temperature).

btw, Tundraline, have you calculated your carbon footprint lately (not counting "carbon offsets", which I consider cheating). If you're not severely cutting your personal consumption to help reduce global warming, you're a hypocrite.
I live in a big air-conditioned house, have three Hummers, a hovercraft, and fly all over the world on a regular basis. After deducting carbon credits for having the proper mindset, my calculated carbon footprint is very small. I know that as an individual I have no responsibility for what is happening to my planet.
Locked