Speed in winter conditions

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Gene913
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Re: Speed in winter conditions

Post by Gene913 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:55 pm

mtree wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 2:25 pm
I agree with Scott P. Winter hiking just has too many variables in play. I think your plan to gauge how various conditions contribute to slower times on the same terrain, and how to understand improvement in distance/vertical per hour given the conditions is a waste of brain cells. You're either over thinking it, bored, or trolling for pages of senseless drivel. Just get in better shape. It'll be summer soon enough.
Scott P wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:43 pm
SkaredShtles wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:37 pm
mtree wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:35 am
Knock-off or copycat products happen all the time. If they're produced and marketed from outside the US they can slap whatever name on them they want (in countries that don't recognize or ignore US patent or copyright laws). Happens all the time.

As a consumer, my #1 priority is to get the best value for the money. So, if the copycat or "counterfeit" product meets my needs, great. I admit, I'm not concerned who produces the product, under what conditions, and the affect it may have on competitors. I'm only concerned about ME and MY wallet. If my Arkteryx jacket is made by orphan children in the slums of Mumbai working 12-hour days and it rivals the original in quality and only costs $100, I'll gladly shell out the money. But, that's me. Hey, I also eat 'roid laden chicken and Twinkies. Whatever.

I'm not so pious as to be disillusioned with global inequities. Uh oh...I think my discount computer keyboard is heating up. (Must have been made in Malaysia or Indonesia or something.) Let others fight this out. It ain't my battle.
Well, I guess you go ahead and keep doing you.

This is generally covered in Ethical Behavior 101 - but apparently some people missed that class.

Wait. A 2nd troll in the thread, perhaps? People can't *actually* think like this, can they?

:roll:
Mtree isn't trolling. He just hasn't ever made a useful post on this site. Ever. Maybe someday it will happen, but I wouldn't hold my breath or bet on it.

When I saw Mtree agreeing with what Scott P had to say in this thread, it brought to mind the above thread from some time ago.
"If you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, and you say to this mountain, 'move from here to there,' it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you." Matthew 17:21
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jbealer
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Re: Speed in winter conditions

Post by jbealer » Tue Jan 26, 2021 4:39 pm

shelly+ wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 12:37 pm
I'm merging some threads, thinking about training for daytripping Chicago Basin in the summer. So if I'm training in snow, I'm trying to gauge how various conditions contribute to slower times on the same terrain, and how I can understand improvement in distance/vertical per hour given the conditions.
pick a local hill, pack a heavy pack and see how fast you can get up said hill and keep using said hill and time yourself if you want to gauge improvement. you will not have snow conditions to CB unless your thinking spring with snow.
No Mountain too steep, No trail too long....
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Re: Speed in winter conditions

Post by ltlFish99 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:14 pm

I agree with the statement about food. I always like to eat enough in the morning so that I don't really feel hungry for several hours. Taking short breaks is not much of a time suck. Stopping to eat often can be a time suck.
I think larger groups tend to be slower, except w,hen breaking trail. It was great to be with a larger group where we could switch trail breaking efforts in a foot or more of new snow.
I only have 2 snowflakes, but a good number of long distance hikes.
It always, for several reasons, helps me to start as early as possible.
Especially since now that i am older, I move slower, quite a bit slower.
One of the most enjoyable things I ever had on a winter hike was a cup of hot soup. In the summer I really like to drink cold liquids. In the winter I try to keep liquids as warm as possible.
Dry feet are warm feet and warm hands and warm feet equal a happy me.
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Re: Speed in winter conditions

Post by shelly+ » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:29 pm

Monster5 wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:24 am
Anecdotally and in order of importance, I'd say winter pace depends on:
1. Trail breaking. A couple feet of fresh sugar snow can drop the pace by 75%. I'd tie navigation into this. If breaking trail, you're likely navigating and whipping out a map more often.
2. Weight/bulk on the feet. Boots, possibly gaiters, traction, and flotation can drop a pace by 20%.
3. Weight/bulk on the back. Heavier pack can drop the pace by around 10%.
4. Temps and wind. I don't know. Maybe 5%. If it's windy, I move faster and take fewer/shorter breaks.
That's what I was looking for. Thanks!
we were never being boring.
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Re: Speed in winter conditions

Post by jscully205 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:34 pm

From what I'm understanding, this a means to an end? Is the goal to hike all the CB peaks in a day and think you will benefit from hiking peaks in the winter? If so, then yes hiking uphill in the snow will translate to better fitness. Summer conditions may even seem much easier than the given mileage if you are used to trudging up a mountain in the cold and darkness.
If it were me attempting that, I would want a very good base fitness and would get that in winter. Once the spring and summer months rolled around I would then build in specificity for the objective. In this case that would be speed.
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Re: Speed in winter conditions

Post by Will_E » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:58 pm

shelly+ wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:21 am
If the typical summer hiker averages 1k/hour, how much do snow and cold and wind usually slow you down? And which factors seem to cause the most interference in adding time to your day?
As others have mentioned, too many variables, here are a few that are in my memory, that are same route summer/winter with no additional distance in winter.

Barr trail to Pikes Peak I’ve done several times in summer, takes me 8 hours. Winter 2019 it took me almost 11.

LaPlata I can do in 5 hours flat in summer, did standard route in late November 2018, winter route in December 2019. Both times in winter conditions it took over 9 hours.

Massive from fish hatchery, in June 2019 it took me just over 6 hours. In January 2019 it took almost 11.
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Re: Speed in winter conditions

Post by shelly+ » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:06 pm

Let me fine tune the question, since I'm not asking specifically about hiking peaks in winter from TH to summit and return.

If you hike between 13k and 14k for one hour in summer on a class 1 slope and you usually on average achieve about 1000', how much would that rate change on the same terrain if you hiked it for one hour in 15F, 20mph wind, no route finding, no trench, postholing to the top of your boots with spikes? All other factors are equal (same boots, same pack weight, etc), except having more weight in clothes.

Perhaps it's a stupid question, but those are my favourite. And it's not the first time I've been accused of overthinking.
we were never being boring.
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spiderman
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Re: Speed in winter conditions

Post by spiderman » Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:43 pm

There is no such thing as stupid questions, just stupid people.

My vertical gain pace would only slow from 1000'/h down to 666'/h if that wind was in my face and 750'/h if it was a tail wind. I always have a tailwind.
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daway8
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Re: Speed in winter conditions

Post by daway8 » Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:00 pm

shelly+ wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:06 pm
Let me fine tune the question, since I'm not asking specifically about hiking peaks in winter from TH to summit and return.

If you hike between 13k and 14k for one hour in summer on a class 1 slope and you usually on average achieve about 1000', how much would that rate change on the same terrain if you hiked it for one hour in 15F, 20mph wind, no route finding, no trench, postholing to the top of your boots with spikes? All other factors are equal (same boots, same pack weight, etc), except having more weight in clothes.

Perhaps it's a stupid question, but those are my favourite. And it's not the first time I've been accused of overthinking.
Temperature shouldn't really have any impact (at least not in the range you mentioned) other than that you'll likely carry more weight in extra layers and might have to make a brief pause or two to add/substract layers during the hike.
Wind, at a mere 20mph, won't have much of an impact either. Now once you hit 50, 60mph or more and have to start literally crawling along a ridge that will slow you tremendously...
If there's no trenching needed that eliminates the single biggest slowdown factor in winter (except perhaps the above mentioned crawling, but that's not as likely to be as sustained as a long untouched route you have to trench).
If route finding also isn't an issue and if you don't have to start way back from the summer trailhead then you've eliminated a lot of the winter time loss variables.

So basically, once you eliminate trenching, route finding, starting from distant trailheads, dealing with insane winds and so forth then you can sometimes get fairly close to summer travel times. Only problem is that finding a route/day that meets all of those qualifications in winter is a rare thing.

Yes, you're overthinking. Just keep hiking during winter and you'll stay fit/acclimated. Then ramp up if needed as your trip approaches.
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Re: Speed in winter conditions

Post by shelly+ » Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:52 pm

daway8 wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:00 pm
Temperature shouldn't really have any impact (at least not in the range you mentioned) other than that you'll likely carry more weight in extra layers and might have to make a brief pause or two to add/substract layers during the hike.
Wind, at a mere 20mph, won't have much of an impact either. Now once you hit 50, 60mph or more and have to start literally crawling along a ridge that will slow you tremendously...
If there's no trenching needed that eliminates the single biggest slowdown factor in winter (except perhaps the above mentioned crawling, but that's not as likely to be as sustained as a long untouched route you have to trench).
If route finding also isn't an issue and if you don't have to start way back from the summer trailhead then you've eliminated a lot of the winter time loss variables.

So basically, once you eliminate trenching, route finding, starting from distant trailheads, dealing with insane winds and so forth then you can sometimes get fairly close to summer travel times. Only problem is that finding a route/day that meets all of those qualifications in winter is a rare thing.

I thought as much. Something is slowing me down more than it should on practice runs and I don't have a summer comparison time for this particular route. Thanks!
we were never being boring.
Aphelion
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Re: Speed in winter conditions

Post by Aphelion » Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:59 pm

shelly+ wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:06 pm
If you hike between 13k and 14k for one hour in summer on a class 1 slope and you usually on average achieve about 1000', how much would that rate change on the same terrain if you hiked it for one hour in 15F, 20mph wind, no route finding, no trench, postholing to the top of your boots with spikes? All other factors are equal (same boots, same pack weight, etc), except having more weight in clothes.
In that scenario, I'd spitball maybe a 10% slowdown on average? But that's also super individual. 15F and 20mph isn't that bad for me, so I consider it to be 0%/negligible slowdown factor. Postholing to boot-height is also not really post-holing, so it's going to be dependent on snow conditions. If that's 6" of powder, maybe only 0-5% slowdown factor? But if it's a hard but unsupportive crust, that's going to increase up to maybe 30% slowdown if I'm having to break through on each step and then mince my foot straight up out of the hole (or break crust twice per step). Microspikes probably slow me somewhat, but I use them so rarely that I'm not sure I could put a number on that. Weight of additional worn clothing is negligible, but I still carry quite a few more layers in winter than in summer in the pack (which I know isn't part of this scenario).

I don't have a great answer to your original question, but I've found in my own experience that unless the trenching is truly miserable/long, my winter pace is rarely less than 50% of my summer pace, so I typically use 0.5*(summer estimate) as my normal winter planning rate and then wind up coming in ahead of schedule. The main impeding factors are trenching effort, extra weight carried/worn, and the extra care necessary for walking on slick/snowy terrain.
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Re: Speed in winter conditions

Post by shelly+ » Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:19 pm

spiderman wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:43 pm
There is no such thing as stupid questions, just stupid people.

My vertical gain pace would only slow from 1000'/h down to 666'/h if that wind was in my face and 750'/h if it was a tail wind. I always have a tailwind.
I'm not ashamed to admit there's a s**t ton of s**t I don't know. People on this site have knowledge and experience I'll never ever have. Ever. As long as they're willing to share their expertise, I'll ask.
we were never being boring.
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